Analog mastering limiters

[K-Slash]

Hi guys,

I did a search about "analog mastering limiters" and I found, almost nothing .

Is there hardware analog mastering limiters out there, or is everyone using a mastering limiter as a plugin in the DAW at the end of the mastering chain ?

I know there is a lot of great tools in the DAW world, like : Flux, Sonnox, McDSP, Sonalksis, whatever...

But what's available in analog hardware form (just being curious) ?

[bob katz]

Originally Posted by K-Slash

Hi guys,

I did a search about "analog mastering limiters" and I found, almost nothing .

Is there hardware analog mastering limiters out there, or is everyone using a mastering limiter as a plugin in the DAW at the end of the mastering chain ?

I know there is a lot of great tools in the DAW world, like : Flux, Sonnox, McDSP, Sonalksis, whatever...

But what's available in analog hardware form (just being curious) ?

There are limiters and there are limiters. But there are no analog "brickwall" peak limiters that can guarantee there will be no digital overloads because they cannot operate with sample accuracy. That's why you only see digital limiters at the very end of the chain.

BK

[Andy Krehm]

Originally Posted by K-Slash

Hi guys,

I did a search about "analog mastering limiters" and I found, almost nothing .

Is there hardware analog mastering limiters out there, or is everyone using a mastering limiter as a plugin in the DAW at the end of the mastering chain ?

I know there is a lot of great tools in the DAW world, like : Flux, Sonnox, McDSP, Sonalksis, whatever...

But what's available in analog hardware form (just being curious) ?

I use the Pendulum Audio PL-2 Analog Brickwall Limiter just before my ADC.
http://www.pendulumaudio.com/PL2.htm

However, I also use a digital limiter (L2, Xenon PSP or TC Brickwall) at the end of the audio chain. I really like the combination of the analog and digital limiters most of the time. Obviously both are used sparingly but if you need a loud master, you can hit the PL-2 pretty hard with few artifacts.

However, I guessing (from reading the posts on the mastering webboards) that I'm probably one of the few mastering engineers that uses an analog limiter!

[Chris Lago]

Originally Posted by bob katz

There are limiters and there are limiters. But there are no analog "brickwall" peak limiters that can guarantee there will be no digital overloads because they cannot operate with sample accuracy. That's why you only see digital limiters at the very end of the chain.

BK

Hmm I didn't actually know that, I thought there were Analog limiter for Mastering only. By the way, I took your advice with the PSP Xenon and it sounds awesome, I like the oversampling abilities to it. It's a good alternative to my Sonnox Limiter. Algorithmix for Eqing is great too, too bad that these plugins are so expensive.

[WBM]

Originally Posted by Andy Krehm

I use the Pendulum Audio PL-2 Analog Brickwall Limiter just before my ADC.
http://www.pendulumaudio.com/PL2.htm

However, I also use a digital limiter (L2, Xenon PSP or TC Brickwall) at the end of the audio chain. I really like the combination of the analog and digital limiters most of the time. Obviously both are used sparingly but if you need a loud master, you can hit the PL-2 pretty hard with few artifacts.

However, I guessing (from reading the posts on the mastering webboards) that I'm probably one of the few mastering engineers that uses an analog limiter!

You right Andy, but I think is not that natural when you add an other Dig limiter after the analog chain, I prefer to go from my PL-2 to my A/D , not L-2 hardware but sometimes a multi band comp with a Voxengo not that bad to tie things out.

[djwaudio]

Originally Posted by bob katz

There are limiters and there are limiters. But there are no analog "brickwall" peak limiters that can guarantee there will be no digital overloads because they cannot operate with sample accuracy. That's why you only see digital limiters at the very end of the chain.

BK

The Maselec MPL-2 controls peaks to within a tenth of a dB. It's pretty remarkable that it can do that in the analog domain. I don't really use it as a loudness maker, more of a limiter for when I need to control peaks.

Now that I have Prism converters, I'm going to be testing the possibilities of using the MPL and the Overkillers together to see if I gan get anything worthwhile. I sometimes fantasize about zero digital processing in my chain.

[K-Slash]

Thank you for all your replies.

So if understand it right, for you all, the best way to enhance loudness in analog mastering, is to clip the output with and ADC thumbsup ?

[tomdarude]

all I know of are:

Pendulum

Maselec

and the Magis MA-1L

MA-1L

[djwaudio]

Originally Posted by K-Slash

Thank you for all your replies.

So if understand it right, for you all, the best way to enhance loudness in analog mastering, is to clip the output with and ADC thumbsup ?

Not in my world. I don't like the sound of clipping distortion.

[24-96 Mastering]

Originally Posted by K-Slash

Thank you for all your replies.

So if understand it right, for you all, the best way to enhance loudness in analog mastering, is to clip the output with and ADC thumbsup ?

analog limiting, digital limiting, digital multiband limiting, analog clipping (an A/D, for example), digital clipping, digital soft clipping, oversampled clipping, fast single band compression, single band parallel compression, multiband compression, multiband parallel compression, aggressive EQing, manual gain staging, "Inflation", distorting audio (one way or another), etc.

There's no single best way to make things loud, neither in analog nor digital. Nothing is as complex as finding "the best" way to make a particular recording loud. You have to experiment with all the above and while one may work well for one album, it'll rip another one to pieces. There's no on magic fix. You have to experiment.

[Cellotron]

A very large number of analog compressors can be made to limit simply by setting their ratios high. As noted previously this certainly doesn't create the same effect as a digital brickwall limiter and sometimes is a very colored sound that sometimes over softens initial transients. Still they can have their uses - but there is indeed reason why final limiting chores where transparency is desired have been generally taken over by digital processors.

Other analog limiters not yet mentioned that can be effective for mastering use are from NTP (i.e. 179-120, 179-400, 179-160), and the Focusrite Blue 330 has a seperate limiter section that is in fact look ahead that can be occasionally useful.

Best regards,
Steve Berson

[Greg Reierson]

Originally Posted by djwaudio

Now that I have Prism converters, I'm going to be testing the possibilities of using the MPL and the Overkillers [snip]

I've always been curious about Overkillers. Let us know what you find out.


GR

[K-Slash]

Yes, it seems that experiences are the "only" way to learn how to do this right, by starting doing it wrong .

[dcollins]

Originally Posted by djwaudio

The Maselec MPL-2 controls peaks to within a tenth of a dB. It's pretty remarkable that it can do that in the analog domain. I don't really use it as a loudness maker, more of a limiter for when I need to control peaks.

There are several analog limiters that can prevent digital overs, like the Dominator, etc.

It's not a matter of impossibility, just that digital versions sound better..........


DC

[Bob Weston]

There's a peak limiter section in the Cranesong STC-8.

bob weston
chicago mastering

[Adam Dempsey]

Originally Posted by Bob Weston

There's a peak limiter section in the Cranesong STC-8

... which definitely doesn't sound better than digital look-ahead or some other analogue options.
You could also choose a Vari-Mu in limit mode.. again, for its sound (and not so much in mastering), rather than preventing overs.

The Pendulum Audio PL-2 has me curious... isn't it more of a soft (or hard option) clipper?

[Doc Mixwell]

Originally Posted by Andy Krehm

I use the Pendulum Audio PL-2 Analog Brickwall Limiter just before my ADC.
http://www.pendulumaudio.com/PL2.htm

However, I also use a digital limiter (L2, Xenon PSP or TC Brickwall) at the end of the audio chain. I really like the combination of the analog and digital limiters most of the time. Obviously both are used sparingly but if you need a loud master, you can hit the PL-2 pretty hard with few artifacts.

However, I guessing (from reading the posts on the mastering webboards) that I'm probably one of the few mastering engineers that uses an analog limiter!

Oh Man Large thumbs up for the PL2. That device is an amazingly transparent animal that is certainly worthy of the job!

Originally Posted by Boomshanka

The Pendulum Audio PL-2 has me curious... isn't it more of a soft (or hard option) clipper?

From the Pendulum Web site;

The PL-2 has two modes of peak limiting, using either junction field-effect transistors (JFET) or metal-oxide semiconductor field effect transistors (MOSFET) as the control elements. While both are equally capable of brick wall limiting, each type has its own characteristic sound. The JFET tends to be a stiffer, harder mode of limiting, while the MOSFET has a softer, more compliant response. The resulting waveforms look different, and each device has its own characteristic sound.

I absolutely love this thing!! Its right out of the Q2 Limiter section, with switchable gain for easy recall, and continuos ceiling control.

[Ben F]

Originally Posted by Greg Reierson

I've always been curious about Overkillers. Let us know what you find out.

GR

I could never really get them to sound good. Others might have different stories.

[Online-Mastering]

Our studio 1 uses the Pendulum PL-2 as well. Depending on your project it can deliver some interesting and useful results. It makes sense -as said- to control the digital overs with another digital brickwall at the end of the chain.

The PL-2 is sounds nice and punchy (in terms of low end behaviour). When pushing it harder, bass drums / bass sounds can get a round and very 'analogue-ish' feel. But the top end always loses a bit clarity / transient content when driving it hard. You can correct that with another eq BEFORE going into the PL-2.

As said from Robin: No limiter is the 'all-in-one wonder'. It's the music that makes one limiter sound good while the other sounds less good on that single specific project.

So you can see the PL-2 as a useful ADDITION to your chain, but definitely not as the ONLY tool you ever need.

Try to experiment with it and you will discover how it can be used and when...

Arne

[cemski]

just to mention 2 more analog limiters: höf dynamic master (very fast and inaudible) and emt 266 (with look ahead). Both mostly used to ensure no over in broadcast and vinyl cutting. Still very usefull in front of your AD.

[mercurydime]

Originally Posted by Bob Weston

There's a peak limiter section in the Cranesong STC-8.

bob weston
chicago mastering

i love my STC-8. the limiter seems useful only in "barely mode"...and i mean barely. that baby latches on to some transients...

[wado1942]

There's plenty analogue limiters out there. Most of them are just compressors with the ratio cranked all the way. Now as for brick wall limiters meant for the sole purpose of slamming digital levels into the ceiling, Bob K covered that pretty well. Though I must say that it IS possible to do this in the analogue domain, it's just not convenient. All it requires is the direct signal going into the side chain of a compressor while a delayed version goes through the signal input. There's also another breed of limiter with its origins in the 60s that has a clipper on the output to prevent ANY overages. Those units are known neither for their transparancy nor their accuracy.

[cemski]

well, imho and experience a combination of analog limiting and digital ceiling control is very gentle to your audio and you can still get a loud master if requested. maybe it depends on the analog limiter you use?!

[djwaudio]

Originally Posted by Greg Reierson

I've always been curious about Overkillers. Let us know what you find out.


GR

I find the Overkillers are not going to replace your L2; they are not that transparent. However, they do something totally different for the ear. A broader dynamic range is affected with them. You can start to hear the sound well before the levels get hot. You can push a lot of level into them, but instead of clipping or limiting mush, it's more progressive and crunching.

On an organ recording, I though they were quite good as they added a likable presence. On a well mixed rock track, they were "in the way". I'm glad to have the option, but suspect they will only get occasional use.

[sat159p1]

(sorry for making old thread active again)



So, if analogue limiters "don't do the right job" in 21st century, what fine brickwall plugin do you reccommend, after pusing the signal thru analogue gear, passive EQ, & Vari-Mu tube compressor? is L2 a good choice? Or maybe it's something better, for less $.

[PBM]

Originally Posted by sat159p1

(sorry for making old thread active again)



So, if analogue limiters "don't do the right job" in 21st century, what fine brickwall plugin do you reccommend, after pusing the signal thru analogue gear, passive EQ, & Vari-Mu tube compressor? is L2 a good choice? Or maybe it's something better, for less $.

No question for me: Audio mastering limiter (maximizer) plugin - Elephant - Voxengo

Cheers,

Eric

[romeojesus]

I am going to add this

Stereo Peak Limiter for Mastering TM215

to the rest of my adt mastering chain soon..

[Table Of Tone]

Originally Posted by 24-96 Mastering

analog limiting, digital limiting, digital multiband limiting, analog clipping (an A/D, for example), digital clipping, digital soft clipping, oversampled clipping, fast single band compression, single band parallel compression, multiband compression, multiband parallel compression, aggressive EQing, manual gain staging, "Inflation", distorting audio (one way or another), etc.

There's no single best way to make things loud, neither in analog nor digital. Nothing is as complex as finding "the best" way to make a particular recording loud. You have to experiment with all the above and while one may work well for one album, it'll rip another one to pieces. There's no on magic fix. You have to experiment.

Well said!thumbsup

[Table Of Tone]

Originally Posted by Greg Reierson

I've always been curious about Overkillers. Let us know what you find out.


GR

Back to back diodes.
They will castrate the audio and distort before the converter does!
Didn't like em in barrel form or in an Orpheus.

[Waltz Mastering]

Originally Posted by romeojesus

I am going to add this

Stereo Peak Limiter for Mastering TM215

to the rest of my adt mastering chain soon..

I remember the ADT stuff being fairly expensive.

Seems the prices came down a little?