Analog mastering limiters

[OurDarkness]

[Dzoing]

Originally Posted by romeojesus

I am going to add this

Stereo Peak Limiter for Mastering TM215

to the rest of my adt mastering chain soon..

I just ordered a TM215b, which is not on the ADT website. Like a TM215 with some more feature: knob for fine gain reduction adjustement, plus adaptative release time.

Prices of module alone is around 500€ (or 600€ for the b version) if I remember correctly.

ADT is top notch, plus a great pleasure to deal with! thumbsup

[huub]

In european analog broadcast trucks (yes they still exist), Urei 1178s are often used as final limiters (at 20:1) because the attack, at its fastest setting makes it very very close to a brick wall limiter (a couple of microseconds or something, nanoseconds even?).. Sounds pretty nice too, but an L2 does sound nicer..
Also, while they do stop peaks, they have a knee, so it behaves more like a compressor.. But like I said, sounds mighty fine..

[ak23]

Originally Posted by Andy Krehm

I use the Pendulum Audio PL-2 Analog Brickwall Limiter just before my ADC.
http://www.pendulumaudio.com/PL2.htm

However, I also use a digital limiter (L2, Xenon PSP or TC Brickwall) at the end of the audio chain. I really like the combination of the analog and digital limiters most of the time. Obviously both are used sparingly but if you need a loud master, you can hit the PL-2 pretty hard with few artifacts.

However, I guessing (from reading the posts on the mastering webboards) that I'm probably one of the few mastering engineers that uses an analog limiter!

i use the Pl-2 nearly every day.
It works on 95% of the recordings but sometimes it distorts
heavyly even with just 1dB of limiting.
But then a digital limiter also gives
only slightly better results.

greetings

andreas

www.schnittstelle.ws

[Shy]

PL-2 for super transparent gain reduction in situations that don't exhibit noticeable odd harmonics distortion (usually 3 to 6 dbs in my case, sometimes more, sometimes less, rarely none), into high quality tube preamp (HVTP2, MDP-1 or similar) that has very pleasing, even harmonics distortion (and no noticeable odd harmonics) when pushing it for gain limiting.

That's my favorite combination and in most cases I find it much better sounding than any other method, minimal or intricate. While so many people are busy with senseless debates about solid state vs tube, the results I can get from both together are usually better than either alone.

[Dean Roddey]

The only way an analog limiter could guarantee no overs is if it delays the signal after it splits it off to send it out to the compression mechanism, and doesn't delay that split off version. That would give the compression mechanism time to see the signal and react before the signal it has to react to arrives.

I'm not a hardware guy, but I fail to see how that could be done in a way that would be acceptable. What means would be available to an analog limiter to delay the signal in a transparent way? There are analog delay mechanisms like bucket bridgage and capacity charge/discharge, but I wouldn't think that either would be acceptably transparent for this type of application?

I guess if you make the assumption that no signal can have a steeper attack slope than X, where X means that there's always time to start sensing it at a point before the set threshold and over-react or something like that. But it wouldn't seem that that would always be very accurate.

[dcollins]

Originally Posted by Dean Roddey

The only way an analog limiter could guarantee no overs is if it delays the signal after it splits it off to send it out to the compression mechanism, and doesn't delay that split off version. That would give the compression mechanism time to see the signal and react before the signal it has to react to arrives.

I'm not a hardware guy, but I fail to see how that could be done in a way that would be acceptable. What means would be available to an analog limiter to delay the signal in a transparent way? There are analog delay mechanisms like bucket bridgage and capacity charge/discharge, but I wouldn't think that either would be acceptably transparent for this type of application?

No "look ahead" would be required, only an attack time that is sufficiently short.

Analog limiters that did delay the program relative to the side-chain used allpass filters. I'm not aware of any using BBD as the quality would be lousy.

DC

[Dean Roddey]

Originally Posted by dcollins

No "look ahead" would be required, only an attack time that is sufficiently short.

Analog limiters that did delay the program relative to the side-chain used allpass filters. I'm not aware of any using BBD as the quality would be lousy.

DC

But there's no attack time greater than zero that can guarantee no overs. That was the argument being made earlier. If the attack time isn't zero (really less than zero via digital look ahead), then overs can happen. Given that you are using it specifically for the purpose of allowing transients to be shaved off, and the tops of them to sit a fraction of a dB under 0dBFS, then there's not much room for error there. And given that the things being shaved off are often sharply transient things like snare hits as well, that makes it even more likely that there will be problems.

[edvirgo]

Originally Posted by bob katz

There are limiters and there are limiters. But there are no analog "brickwall" peak limiters that can guarantee there will be no digital overloads because they cannot operate with sample accuracy. That's why you only see digital limiters at the very end of the chain.

BK

HI Bob
What about Limiter on TC Finalizer Plus/96K, any tips using using 1 of those. i had myself at home, any the rule of thumb / tips to using limiter on TC Finalizer Plus/96K...Ive reads 1 of your tutorial u tips using a multiband compressor well its works. so what about Limiter?
tx

best regard

[dcollins]

Originally Posted by bob katz
There are limiters and there are limiters. But there are no analog "brickwall" peak limiters that can guarantee there will be no digital overloads because they cannot operate with sample accuracy. That's why you only see digital limiters at the very end of the chain.

BK


Bob's claim was easily refuted as analog limiters such as the Dominator and even the all passive Prism Overkillers are fast enough to stop overs.

Neither uses any sort of look-ahead.




DC


best regard[/QUOTE]

[Virtalahde]

Originally Posted by dcollins

Bob's claim was easily refuted as analog limiters such as the Dominator and even the all passive Prism Overkillers are fast enough to stop overs.

The Dominator is certainly fast enough to stop overs, but the resulting sound certainly isn't useful for everything.

Haven't had my Dom II on for two years, I think.

Sometimes I do feel an analog limiter could be useful, such as the Pendulum. Mainly for really shaping overly pokey transients, not for transparent GR.

[Shy]

Originally Posted by Virtalahde

The Dominator is certainly fast enough to stop overs, but the resulting sound certainly isn't useful for everything.

Right, that's why I use PL-2 which is fast enough as well as extremely transparent in many cases, especially for shaping transients, and Dominator II mostly for stuff like seriously crazy drum bus limiting/compression where the odd harmonics don't interfere.

[dcollins]

Originally Posted by Virtalahde;

The Dominator is certainly fast enough to stop overs, but the resulting sound certainly isn't useful for everything.

Haven't had my Dom II on for two years, I think.

Sometimes I do feel an analog limiter could be useful, such as the Pendulum. Mainly for really shaping overly pokey transients, not for transparent GR.

I found the same thing, but just wanted to clarify the point about overs and analog limiters. I briefly thougt about taking the clipper board out of the Dominator and seeing how just that party sounds, but realized that it's really a job for digital.

DC

[Dean Roddey]

But, that was kind of the point I was making. It has to be a means that sounds acceptable. If you don't mind square waves you don't need a limiter, just let the D/A clip and you'll get the same effect, so that's not much of a claim to fame to sell a box to do that really.

To do otherwise would seem to require slowing down the signal to allow the controlling element to react in time. Digital limiters can look at head and see when the peak is coming and round it off in a more transparent way.

[dcollins]

Originally Posted by Dean Roddey

But, that was kind of the point I was making. It has to be a means that sounds acceptable. If you don't mind square waves you don't need a limiter, just let the D/A clip and you'll get the same effect, so that's not much of a claim to fame to sell a box to do that really.

To do otherwise would seem to require slowing down the signal to allow the controlling element to react in time. Digital limiters can look at head and see when the peak is coming and round it off in a more transparent way.

I don't know how else to put this other than to repeat that if the analog limiters attack time is less than a sample period (23 us at 44.1) it will prevent an over. No slowing or anything else is required.


DC

[24-96 Mastering]

Originally Posted by dcollins

I don't know how else to put this other than to repeat that if the analog limiters attack time is less than a sample period (23 us at 44.1) it will prevent an over. No slowing or anything else is required.


DC

Aphex will have to introduce a new Dominator once SACD takes over...

[Dean Roddey]

Originally Posted by dcollins

I don't know how else to put this other than to repeat that if the analog limiters attack time is less than a sample period (23 us at 44.1) it will prevent an over. No slowing or anything else is required.

DC

But to do anything other than square wave it pretty much, it has to have more than 1 sample's worth of warning to know that it's actually going to go over and retroactively round off the transient. And to see when it's coming back out to do the same on the other side. As I said, if you can't do better than that, I'm not sure how it's much better than just letting the D/A clip?

[romeojesus]

Originally Posted by Dzoing

I just ordered a TM215b, which is not on the ADT website. Like a TM215 with some more feature: knob for fine gain reduction adjustement, plus adaptative release time.

Prices of module alone is around 500€ (or 600€ for the b version) if I remember correctly.

ADT is top notch, plus a great pleasure to deal with! thumbsup

Oh..I will take a look into that version of the limiter.
Mr. juengling is a great guy. I visited ADT a month ago and had a chat
with him for two hours.
He has so much stuff that can´t be seen on the website...
like the toolmod mastering EQ with only +/-6dB cut and boost which makes dialing in the right amount of cut/boost much easier or the
locut/hicut module (6dB or 12dB) with different filter chracteristics (butterworth, chebichev, maximum flat etc)..he even showed me a new toolmod M/S 4band eq model thats coming up...

great stuff

[staudio]

I have a PL-2 that I use sometimes. So far it has been fast enough to stop any overs and I have slammed it pretty hard!! I have set the ceiling to just under my AD clip level (-.5dB to -1dB) and I make up the rest (to -.3dBFS) with digital gain or a plugin limiter.

[dcollins]

Originally Posted by 24-96 Mastering

Aphex will have to introduce a new Dominator once SACD takes over...

It's gonna be big! Big, I tells ya!

Actually SACD had a 'standard' for consecutive zeros (or ones) as there could be problems with modulator overload. Aiui they would not replicate sources that didn't comply.


DC

[Joemamma]

These are not really limiters (though distortion sometimes limits in a way), but has anyone tried these and like them for mastering:

Thermionic Culture Vulture Mastering Edition
and
The Phoenix Mastering Limited Edition
(THERMIONIC CULTURE ALL VALVE DESIGN PROFESSIONAL AUDIO EQUIPMENT)

They look cool. I think they can give som cool analog saturation to a track.

[Darius van H]

There's plenty of analog gear that can be used as a limiter, if you drive it hard enough. Sure it'll cause distortion, but so will many limiters if you push 'em.

[Delta Heavy]

Originally Posted by Joemamma

These are not really limiters (though distortion sometimes limits in a way), but has anyone tried these and like them for mastering:

Thermionic Culture Vulture Mastering Edition
and
The Phoenix Mastering Limited Edition
(THERMIONIC CULTURE ALL VALVE DESIGN PROFESSIONAL AUDIO EQUIPMENT)

They look cool. I think they can give som cool analog saturation to a track.

I have the standard Vulture, way too much for full program material imo

[polybonk]

I replaced the tubes in my standard vulture with matched Telefunkens and RCA's and it sounds perfect for mastering. Had to use microphonic dampeners tho because it is crazy high microphony. But it is a compleatly different beast now. I use it on electronic ITB music all the time. The bass is so much tighter through the vulture and more defined and the mids and highs stay very detailed now.

That said its not really somthing that you hit hard so it does no limiting.