Please help...Amateur mastering problems

[msm07]

Need help people. I made a thread previously about an artist who wants me to "master" his album. In my scene i'm known for mixdowns...not mastering. I tell these people I dont master and that they need to get it done by someone else but the label don't seem to think sending it off for a real mastering is worth there time so early on in the artists career (or they can't hear the differences so the money seems steep lol..not sure). Its a independant label anyway which explains a lot, most of UK Grime/hip hop is done this way. Unprofessionaly.

Anyway I've mixed the projects (16 tracks/songs) and bounced them (nothing on the master bus while bouncing)

Imported the songs into another project

Insert (on each channel/song) T-racks 3 or necesary plugins (uad, waves ssl and liquid mix)

Precision limiter last (again on each song)

I then solo tracks and work on each song accordingly and move between them to see the balance i've got.

I know this is a very amatuer way of doing things but it seemed the most logical way of acheiving this "balance" they want. Problem is...ITS NOT WORKING. It just doesnt sit right, or feel right. When I was mixing the songs they sounded nice...now they are bounced its horrible. I can't make any changes that I want without closing the project and opening the original etc etc

I think i've made a fundamental mistake of MIXING while having some processors on the master bus. I tend to put a comp, and limiter on the master bus while mixing as many of these artists dont bother with "mastering" and just want a finished product on the day. I KNOW its wrong, I KNOW its stupid but people don't listen.

Any suggestions?

I'm losing the plot working like this...I guess this is what you get for being self taught and not doing things the right way (if there is a right way)

[kjg]

Originally Posted by msm07

I think i've made a fundamental mistake of MIXING while having some processors on the master bus. I tend to put a comp, and limiter on the master bus while mixing as many of these artists dont bother with "mastering" and just want a finished product on the day. I KNOW its wrong, I KNOW its stupid but people don't listen.

Any suggestions?

Yes, you shouldn't have mixed with comp/limiter etc on the bus. But you did. You said it sounded fine with the plugs on. Now it sounds crap without. So go back. Bounce with the plugs on the bus except the limiter, leave that of.

Then continue the way you were doing. All bounced tracks in a project. Solo between them and use a clean-ish eq to make small adjustments to make the tracks match better.

Also adjust the level to be balanced, of course. Then slap on a limiter and set it such that on the loudest song in catches peaks, max 2 dB gain reduction. That means it'll hardly do anything on the quietest song.

O btw, do this whole thing while monitoring on relatively low volume levels. Don't move your monitor gain around all the time. When you think it is done, turn it up a little and switch through the songs, to see if it holds up well enough.

Should be ok-ish. Not great, but ok


The long and better way (and what you should do next time): remix without anything on the stereo bus. Then send off to an ME.
Maybe talk to macc. He is also on this board. He is in London, and works on a lot of similar music. Even music on a budget.

Good luck!
Klaas-Jan

[macc]

Originally Posted by msm07

It just doesnt sit right, or feel right. When I was mixing the songs they sounded nice...now they are bounced its horrible. I can't make any changes that I want without closing the project and opening the original etc etc

Ahh man - that feeling I know it all too well. It's a direct consequence of lack of objectivity. When you hear something for the first time you don't give a toss (sort of) about what went into it, you just hear the crap bits pretty much straight away and sort it out without all that baggage This is something I know allll too well. Mastering something you've spent so much time on is practically impossible.

I mentioned on here, I signed one of my tunes from 3 years ago to a label and they knew I'd moved into mastering, so asked me if I'd do it. Even after THREE YEARS away from the tune, it was one of the most difficult, frustrating and irritating things. Jeebus. And then it happened again with another tune 3 weeks later

Grime people think nothing of clipping everything left right and centre, smacking channels and the master, limiting for loudness at all costs with ZERO regard for quality, whatever. Fact is, it's a part of the sound, and a part of the music. I had one dude tell me recently 'real men drive through red lights'. I told him only fools drove through every red light without looking. He didn't like that

What (personally) I think some of them don't realise is that a louder AND better sounding result can often come from someone with experience in handling that side of things, and objectivity.

EDIT - This post doesn't really address your technical problems, sorry. kjg got that perfectly though (although for grime you may want a fair bit more than 2dB limiting)

[hummer]

the answer seems really simple to me... you mixed through buss compression, so you were mixing with the characteristics of that compressor in mind, so to speak. meaning, every fader you pushed was interacting with the master effects and that played a part in the mix decisions you made.

you can't change the recipe after you've finished cooking.

put those effects back on the master and you should be fine.

and there's nothing wrong with that, provided it's not excessive.. (even if sending out for mastering)

problems arise when you haphazardly throw on some master buss effects after you've finished mixing. that type of stuff is better left to the ME.

as for your mastering job, less is more. a little goes a long way.. and all that stuff.
if you're happy with the mixes then just go for a bit of consistency and call it a day. you'll thank me later.

good luck.

[kjg]

Originally Posted by macc

EDIT - This post doesn't really address your technical problems, sorry. kjg got that perfectly though (although for grime you may want a fair bit more than 2dB limiting)

Aah right. Grime.. Ok!

In that case: Make sure you get 8dB GR on the quietest song.
Next, bounce to 8 bit. Then open in a wave editor and add 4dB more. Export to 16 bit and burn a cd. Take a steel brush and "polish" BOTH sides of the disc thoroughly. Next, cook 15 minutes in vinegar. Dry in the microwave and you're done.

Your master is ready for the plant!

[msm07]

Thanks guys. Helped a lot. I assumed they would get it mastered properly but eh...it got put in my hands.

I need to get out of that habbit of putting comp/limiter on master bus while mixing. I put them there and make sure there hardly affecting anything...but thats down to bad habbits. In London there is a Kiss100 show (grime radio show) and a lot of artists rush songs out to get on radio...they record friday and want it on radio monday. Thats what got me in the habbit of mastering as I go along...now its come back to haunt me.

[macc]

Originally Posted by msm07

Thanks guys. Helped a lot. I assumed they would get it mastered properly but eh...it got put in my hands.

I need to get out of that habbit of putting comp/limiter on master bus while mixing. I put them there and make sure there hardly affecting anything...but thats down to bad habbits. In London there is a Kiss100 show (grime radio show) and a lot of artists rush songs out to get on radio...they record friday and want it on radio monday. Thats what got me in the habbit of mastering as I go along...now its come back to haunt me.

Nothing wrong with a comp on the bus really, if it's done right. Limiters are more dangerous though.

Kiss smack the stuff as it goes out - maybe try to convince an artist to see how it sounds when you don't absolutely batter it. Bet you a fiver it sounds better

[brethes]

Originally Posted by msm07

Thanks guys. Helped a lot. I assumed they would get it mastered properly but eh...it got put in my hands.

I need to get out of that habbit of putting comp/limiter on master bus while mixing. I put them there and make sure there hardly affecting anything...but thats down to bad habbits. In London there is a Kiss100 show (grime radio show) and a lot of artists rush songs out to get on radio...they record friday and want it on radio monday. Thats what got me in the habbit of mastering as I go along...now its come back to haunt me.

Bounce the tracks again as they were originally (compression and limiter on Master bus) but at 24 bit. It is not ideal (particularly the Limiter) from a mastering point of view, but that's a different issue. Get the mixes back to the state they were when they sounded good to you & your clients. Then import them in your DAW at 24 bit, put a pad on all of them so you have some headroom to play with if you need to apply some EQ, and do the best you can (as you said the label doesn't want to pay for proper mastering). Keep comparing what you are doing with the unprocessedl mix to make sure you are making an improvement, not making it sound worse. Use as less processing as you can, and match levels by turning down the louder tracks rather than turning up the quieter ones. Good luck!

[Franco]

Originally Posted by msm07

I think i've made a fundamental mistake of MIXING while having some processors on the master bus.

IMO, a bigger issue is probably mixing/mastering on the same speakers. I'll spare you the "you have to have a sonically-perfect room" bit, but you definitely need better than nearfield monitors to master on (it also helps with disconnecting yourself to the way your mixes sound over those speakers too). If you don't have a pair of decent hi-fi speakers to use, your best bet is to take what you're doing to your mixes to as many systems as you possibly can, with a notepad and a pen to make notes.

[moomin]

What's up guys, first post here..

Some of the things I have noticed useful:

- Mix until the whole project is in balance, EQ and tweak individual tracks rather than the whole mix.

- Use and check the frequency analyzer from time to time.

- Keep the master bus CLEAN (I use a Nebula M5 preamp only).

- Everything under 300hz -> mono.

- Use ONLY high quality samples/instruments

- Avoid all kinds of exciters and enhancers, try to get there more traditional ways. Mostly, they should be used as a final "enhance".

All in all, if the track is mixed right, you'll be able to get that "commercial" volume level, that completely crushes the dynamics.