Question for Mr. Katz

[edit machine]

Originally Posted by bob katz

I tried it briefly and wasn't turned on. Your mileage may vary!

BK

Thanks! It does something magical to my ears, maybe because I work on a lot of music that is completely produced in the box. I find it adds a nice touch of simulated analog smear when used conservativly near the end of an all digital mastering chain.

[Adam Dempsey]

Originally Posted by Glenn Bucci

There is the emulation of the hardware that many plug ins including UAD and Waves API, SSL, and V Series give you that are very close to the character of the analog hardware. But then there is something else the analog hardware imparts to the signal. That something (weight, 3 dim, stereo image) I believe has to do with
a. Going through your converters

Hopefully not.
(Unless the particular converters involved are deliberately being used for their inherent colouration).

High frequency headroom and 'speed', and the absence of aliasing intermod distortion, are aspects that good analogue processing often has over dsp.

[Ben F]

To many audio professionals there is a difference, but the average listener wouldn't be able to pick some of the emulations. I've seen this evidence when blind testing different codec algorithms...192mp3 is 'CD quality' to the untrained ear. Sounds totally 'mp3' like to me in the studio, but still quite close on an average stereo system.

I think UAD are the closest yet in capturing that analogue 'mojo'...except when you drive them hard or have more extreme settings, then the emulation becomes more obvious.

[macc]

Originally Posted by edit machine

Thanks! It does something magical to my ears, maybe because I work on a lot of music that is completely produced in the box. I find it adds a nice touch of simulated analog smear when used conservativly near the end of an all digital mastering chain.

Got to admit I think that plugin is awful, at least for mastering. Good for smashing up drums and so on, but ecchh on a full mix.

[graincloud]

interesting thread

about "dynamic convolution" and analog hardware emulation, that's some time now that "Nebula" (Acusticaudio) is out, and it seems that quite many people are raving about its emulations. (especialy tapes and eqs, reverbs)

not totally dynamic convolution but rather "voltera kernelling" as said by its programmer

i wonder Mr Katz if you had time to give it a go, on the paper it looks like a new era in plugin world, but i myself only gave it a quick go and without the opportunity to compare with real thing.

i'd be very glad to have a objective,documented and trained point of view.

many thanks for all this knowledge freely spread

[kjg]

Originally Posted by macc

Got to admit I think that plugin is awful, at least for mastering. Good for smashing up drums and so on, but ecchh on a full mix.

+1. very ecchh.
on a good mix, that is. it's like ketchup. ketchup works on some food, but not on really good food. a really good dish can only get worse with ketchup. same with vintage warmer. if your mix corresponds to a hotdog, or macaroni with cheese, then you might want to try it. beyond that, it can only be ruined by it.

[macc]

[bob katz]

Originally Posted by Veseli

I have a thought that it will never get "there" cause I feel there is a big essential difference in a realities of these two worlds (digital and analog).

Actually, this is not a meaningful distinction! Unless you feel that you are unhappy with digital audio in the first place... The rest of what happens inside analog gear can be turned into mathematical equations---believe it or not!

For linear gear (like an API equalizer) the equations are "relatively" simple. For non-linear gear (like a Fairchild compressor) the equations are quite hard. And the obstacles in modeling analog hardware in digital are well known. It's only a matter of time before someone cracks the code so that the audible differences are indistinguishable---listening under equal circumstances, that is, sending a digital source through a D/A/D chain, and A/B comparing the external gear in circuit or hardware-bypass versus the digital simulation in bypass or in-circuit.

Some models (like the bomb factory) have come very close but are missing some last dimensions, and so the modelers have to go back to the drawing board, study their analyses, make more accurate equations, and try again.

I've done a very very strong blind A/B shootout between my API 5500 equalizer and the Algorithmix Blue and I conclude:

The Algorithmix Blue does a wonderful job of equalization on its own. It's a very nice, transparent equalizer, hands down. All the character of the boosts and cuts of the various analog equalizer models comes through in the Algorithmix. So what's missing? ---- The transformer distortion, the phase shift, the changes when going D/A/D, and the often-delightful character of the API's amplifier.

So I use the Red or the Blue for their convenience, transparency, repeatability, and automatability, and I add the rest of the character (when needed) by patching in my API set to flat. It gives me the best of both worlds----repeatable control and character.

Then in my spare time I listen to various transformer emulations and circuit emulations and bide my time until someone gets those equations right. I'm in no rush to sell my 5500, I just haven't used it for actual boost and cut much in a while.

[Tube World]

Originally Posted by bob katz

Some models (like the bomb factory) have come very close but are missing some last dimensions, and so the modelers have to go back to the drawing board, study their analyses, make more accurate equations, and try again.

I've done a very very strong blind A/B shootout between my API 5500 equalizer and the Algorithmix Blue and I conclude:

The Algorithmix Blue does a wonderful job of equalization on its own. It's a very nice, transparent equalizer, hands down. All the character of the boosts and cuts of the various analog equalizer models comes through in the Algorithmix. So what's missing? ---- The transformer distortion, the phase shift, the changes when going D/A/D, and the often-delightful character of the API's amplifier.

Then in my spare time I listen to various transformer emulations and circuit emulations and bide my time until someone gets those equations right. I'm in no rush to sell my 5500, I just haven't used it for actual boost and cut much in a while.

Get ready, the walls are coming down. EveAnna Manley has agreed to work with Universal Audio for some real Manley Plug ins. I would think the Massive Passive, and Manley MU would be the two leading plug ins they will come out with. As technology get's better, the plug ins like the Waves API that Eddie Kramer likes are getting a tad closer. I would not be surprised that in 5-10 years, they will be able to get even closer that we will do everything in the box. But until then, I will enjoy the character of the boxes going through my converters.

http://www.sonicstate.com/news/2009/01/ ... -plug-ins/

[edit machine]

Originally Posted by macc

Got to admit I think that plugin is awful, at least for mastering. Good for smashing up drums and so on, but ecchh on a full mix.

Fair enough, but I'm curious to know what kind of music you tried it on? I mix and master mostly indie techno and hip hop, most of it produced without any analog equipment at all. Just a touch of the PSP Warmer at the end of the mastering chain seems to do wonders for me on such material. But for a recent job mastering a rock album tracked to analog tape, I didn't use it at all.

[Veseli]

Originally Posted by bob katz

Actually, this is not a meaningful distinction! Unless you feel that you are unhappy with digital audio in the first place... The rest of what happens inside analog gear can be turned into mathematical equations---believe it or not!

I do believe that it will progress up to the point where difference can't be spotted even by a trained ears.

Its very close to this even now. I did A/B blind test with a song mastered with Pultec EQs and their Plugin version by BombFactory, and although I prefer the low end made with original thing, I was quite happy with the version done with a plugin.
I was trying to define source of this "feeling" or relation to the analog gear and its sound when working with it, which I totally miss when working with plugins.
This is most probably related to patology, I mean, the vinyls I grew up with and my earlyest impressions of recorded sound which was all analog.
I'm unconsciously trying to recreate it in my work and analog is still the only way to get me there. The generations grew up listening Mp3 will probably be nostalgic about early Mp3 sound
But of coarse, I'm using quite a bit of plugins and some are great tools.

[Veseli]

Originally Posted by edit machine

Fair enough, but I'm curious to know what kind of music you tried it on? I mix and master mostly indie techno and hip hop, most of it produced without any analog equipment at all. Just a touch of the PSP Warmer at the end of the mastering chain seems to do wonders for me on such material. But for a recent job mastering a rock album tracked to analog tape, I didn't use it at all.

You're right, Vintage Warmer might sound ok when warming the electronic and in the box based music but its too dark and distorted for live, rock or acoustic music with lots of harmonics. I would suggest McDSP analog channel for this. You can buy LE native version its not that expensive but its much more subtle and gentle to sound with the ability to go extreme of coarse.

[macc]

I'm not trying to be arsey, sorry Just sharing my experiences...

I do probably roughly 80% totally ITB music (drum n bass, dubstep, house, techno, oddball weirdo electronica, hip-hop), 15% guitar-based home/budget recorded bands and 5% mixes/compilation stuff. I wouldn't use PSP Vintage Warmer on any of it.

I get stuff sometimes from people who have 'put a bit of VW on to warm it up'. In every case so far I have asked them to turn it off and resubmit. It doesn't warm up so much as make things sound just a little bit shit. I like shitty, I love funk and old scabby recordings, so it has its place. But that place is not mastering IMO

I refer sir to the ketchup analogy

[bonne]

Originally Posted by bob katz

Then in my spare time I listen to various transformer emulations and circuit emulations and bide my time until someone gets those equations right. I'm in no rush to sell my 5500, I just haven't used it for actual boost and cut much in a while.

Have you had a chance to use the URS Saturation plug yet, Bob?

Unique Recording Software

[Veseli]

Originally Posted by macc

I like shitty, I love funk and old scabby recordings, so it has its place. But that place is not mastering IMO
I refer sir to the ketchup analogy

I agree that its not a A class thing and sure it makes sound shitty and definitely its not a thing I wanna recommend for mastering.

Just wanted to make a remark that some kind of music may suffer less shit than other but shit tolerance may vary from person to person as well.
Comparing different plugins will tell what suits the best your music.
I recommended McDSP plugins (which are RTAS and TDM only unfortunately, so exclusively for ProTools users), in order that guy can at least get the demo and compare it to the VW in order to realize how good or bad they are for his usage.
Me I'm not using VW even on individual tracks anymore cause it introduce so much latency in its latest versions that I really don't buy it any more.

[bob katz]

Originally Posted by bonne

Have you had a chance to use the URS Saturation plug yet, Bob?

Unique Recording Software

My god, another one! The answer is no... So much time, so little to do :-).

BK

[SEB]

I`Ve been an Algorithmix user for several years, using Red, Blue, Orange and Mr Katz wonderfull K-Stereo every day. I also use the Red during mixing to get the "changed the mic, not EQd the track -sound...

Anyway, lately I`ve more and more found myself using Nebula during mastering and mixing pop and rock stuff. Especially the last eq-samples I find very usefull during mastering. Lifting at 17-18 khz gives a wonderfull airy top that I havent found in my other plugs, not even the Red. Combining this with the Hammer usually gets me there.

I owned an Api 5500 a couple of years and compared it to the Nebula and Waves. The Waves was ok for the treble, but for mids and especially the lows it was muffled and sounded flat. Nebula did fair very well with the hardware, very very close. Slightly different but still not better or worse, keeping in mind that they sampled another API eq than the 5500 (the 550B, maybe?).

The MD4 is stilll keeping up very well!
Now, if Algo could get their masterings compressor out someday...

BTW I`ve been running HEDD and URS Saturation 2.5 together on a masterbuss and it worked actually - at least for rock and roll, and for me...

IMHO

[shmasterer]

Veseli, I really like your ideas.

Seems it was easy for you to tell the difference between the Pultecs. What does that say?

I like the idea of things staying kind of "near the ground". A band is a buncha guys who drink beer in the garage. All of our favorite classic records from "Leader Of The Pack" to "The Wall" are phase distorted and overmodulated, in analog, and we love it.

Not long ago Doug Sax personally gave me a behind the scenes tour of The Mastering Lab, Hollywood. His chain hasn't changed since 1967 and he's still very busy. What does that say?

Best luck, and let us know how the 33609 turns out.

sh

[bonne]

Originally Posted by bob katz

My god, another one! The answer is no... So much time, so little to do :-).

BK

Just a suggestion for your spare time investigations, Bob. I think Bobby Nathan is on the right track to getting these equations right.

API x-former saturation emulation and other goodies. Recommended!!

[Alécio Costa]

Vintage Warmer is a great plug-in for drum overheads, toms, kick, vocals, guitars,bass.

There are a few of my own presets in its factory pre-sets folder.

[Veseli]

Originally Posted by shmasterer

Best luck, and let us know how the 33609 turns out.
sh

Thx, I will post pictures and impressions soon as I test the unit.
Still missing lots of small parts though, but it will get here in a month or so.
For now I have all the pricey bits, transformers, switches etc...
Its a bit difficult to get the parts here in Bosnia as almost none can be found here so through international orders and friends is the only way.

[basstracker7769]

Originally Posted by basstracker7769

Mr. Katz i was curious what you thought of the UAD products
since they use your metering in their Precision Limiter

I dont have the resources to buy and try a vast resource of plugins or the real vintage gear
but UAD has always done the job for me

Any thoughts ?

Mr. Katz i am reposting since you probably missed do to the top of the next page syndrome

any thoughts about UAD with their emulations? compared to others and the original analog gear?

[bob katz]

Originally Posted by basstracker7769

Mr. Katz i am reposting since you probably missed do to the top of the next page syndrome

any thoughts about UAD with their emulations? compared to others and the original analog gear?

I have a UAD card and it went into the mix room so haven't auditioned it critically in the mastering room and I can't pry it out of Robin's hands :-). Now of course it's PCI and won't fit in the PCI-E in the mastering room. Someday I'll get a PCI-E version and check it out.

BK

[eq7]

Not trying to sound like a broken record but there was a question about AcusticAudio's NEBULA. IMHO its the best emulation that Ive heard period. Kills the Bomb Factory, Waves, Tritone, URS. MOST IF NOT ALL OF THEM!! Again jus curious if youve heard it and what you might think. And if you havent I humbly suggest you should and provide us with your wonderful feedback. Thank you sir.

[bob katz]

Originally Posted by eq7

Not trying to sound like a broken record but there was a question about AcusticAudio's NEBULA. IMHO its the best emulation that Ive heard period. Kills the Bomb Factory, Waves, Tritone, URS. MOST IF NOT ALL OF THEM!! Again jus curious if youve heard it and what you might think. And if you havent I humbly suggest you should and provide us with your wonderful feedback. Thank you sir.

Thanks for the support and encouragement! Sounds like a lot of people are getting behind the Nebula! Well, my answer is, "in my copious free time". As soon as I get a chance... Why not ask Brian Lucey if he has time. If you can convince him there must be something there :-).

BK

[a1236040]

Nebula isn't a convolution plugin, it's based on new Volterra Kernel and sound very close to hardware than any plugin.

I suggest to Bob to try the Nebula3 commercial (better than free version) with API550B program and the new Doc Fear EQ.
Bob, I'm pretty sure that you'll be amazing with this new technology and how it sounds good. Unfortunately the sampling is only @44.1Khz, but the API give you all the character of his amazing transformer, and of course the deep and 3D sound.

Acusticaudio (Plugin)
Home :: nebula-programs.com (library as API, Neve, Doc Fear etc.)

[jaffa]

Originally Posted by bob katz

Then I might add my API 5500 equalizer in the analog chain set to flat to achieve the transformer distortion and a bit of grit and depth and perhaps some other analog processors, and away we go. See, there's more than one way to skin a Katz...

BK

This concept of adding analog outboard flat is something I read that Michael Brauer uses with his multi stem/compressor setup, where a lot of the time the units are set flat and used purely for the tone they impart. Bob, would you think a compressor like the APi 2500 would have a similar effect as the 5500 across a mix set flat or do you think the 5500 has a unique sound? I have a 2500 but not a 5500.

Steve

[bob katz]

Originally Posted by jaffa

This concept of adding analog outboard flat is something I read that Michael Brauer uses with his multi stem/compressor setup, where a lot of the time the units are set flat and used purely for the tone they impart. Bob, would you think a compressor like the APi 2500 would have a similar effect as the 5500 across a mix set flat or do you think the 5500 has a unique sound? I have a 2500 but not a 5500.

Steve

The 2500 is different but worth a try, Steve. The thing is that the 2500 has a bunch of VCA's in there. Its distortion if I recall (it's been a year since I've had the 2500 in my rack, it's now upstairs in the mix room) is a lot sweeter than the 5500. The compressor adds a little "goo", even when it's not compressing. HOWEVER, be aware that I found the 2500 has a VERY high input sensitivity, and it was always compressing a little bit at most settings until I modified the input threshold. Its output gain had much too wide a range as well and I modified that so I would have 0 through 4 dB throughout the full rotation of the pot. You're always passing signal through VCAs. Not to say that that's bad, but they have a very different sound than an API 550. I also seem to recall that the 2500 may not have the transformers of the 550 or the balanced input amp (which is not a 2520), it's been a while since I opened it up.

[jaffa]

Thanks Bob. Might be worth hiring in a 5500 to see if it's worth bringing in permanently alongside the 2500. I've always thought I noticed a positive difference when I pass something through even a unit like the lil freq set flat - which I have - I just don't have a stereo outboard EQ, something I was thinking I needed. Been using the Sonnox plug happily for the last year or so.

Steve