International clients and payment

[jayfrigo]

What do you guys do about taking payment from international clients? Credit cards seem to work in most cases, but are there different or better options? What risks concern you, and what procedures have you put in place to minimize those risks?

So far I've been lucky and haven't been burned on international jobs. I've had clients from all over North America, several places in South America, much of Europe, Australia, and Japan. I've not yet done any business with clients in Africa or Southeast Asia. The world is becoming more international, and the internet brings everybody close. This can be an opportunity, or a problem. What do you guys think?

[bgrotto]

Originally Posted by jayfrigo

What do you guys do about taking payment from international clients? Credit cards seem to work in most cases, but are there different or better options? What risks concern you, and what procedures have you put in place to minimize those risks?

So far I've been lucky and haven't been burned on international jobs. I've had clients from all over North America, several places in South America, much of Europe, Australia, and Japan. I've not yet done any business with clients in Africa or Southeast Asia. The world is becoming more international, and the internet brings everybody close. This can be an opportunity, or a problem. What do you guys think?

I've been OK using PayPal (which seems very convenient for EU clients taking advantage of the Euro/USD exchange rate), as well as Western Union. Generally get paid in full upfront, or half upfront and half before submitting final versions.

References I send for approval are wav files that have random slices of audio taken every 30 seconds or so.

Anyway, I've had great luck with clients taking advantage of exchange rates, and I'm getting mixing gigs I never dreamed I'd land because of this. It's great!

[finetuner]

Mostly wire transfers, which is quite normal here in Europe anyway.
Never had any problems, the U.S included.
Occasionally Paypal (from Australia) which may be easier for overseas clients.
For e-mastering, online payment methods are more appropriate.

I usually send an invoice after all the work is done and clients can already have their masters. I realize this sounds crazy but it's common for many service orientated A/V business in the Netherlands.
I like to work on such a trust basis and haven't been hurt in the 5 years that i work on my own, nor has the mastering house that i used to work for over 13 years.
For new international clients and e-mastering in general, payment in advance of the final delivery is the only way.

[Daft]

The most troublesome country I have found is the USA.

I had huge problems getting paid by a major label:
- 30% withholding tax was retained until I had visited the US Embassy in person to obtain a TAX code
- Label's refusal to pay VAT
- 18 months form invoice to final payment (and still no VAT)

[lucey]

PayPal, no problems. It's like anything ... gotta have a feel for the person and deal with them accordingly. thumbsup

[inlinenl]

paypal and normal bank-transfer works okay ....
paypal is fast ... still a lot off fee to paypal and the exchange rates are questionable ...
no VAT when business to business our clients outside the EU ...

[Lagerfeldt]

PayPal in most cases. Just be aware that PayPal is a really, really sucky company.

Bank transfers once in a while, but I recommend against it since it can be quite expensive for the client (or you, if you forget to tell the client that they have to pay the transfer fees). In some cases money is transferred thru several banks and several countries (e.g. UK>Germany>Denmark), each bank adding a new fee. It's not unusally for fees to exceed $100 on a single transfer. In most cases it's closer to $30-50 though.

I got a Western Union money transfer once but that takes too much time for me, so I'm not accepting that anymore. Usually this is from African or some middle eastern countries.

I've never been cheated by an international client, and I've had clients from all over the world: US, UK, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany, Turkey, Russia, Italy, Finland, and the rest of Scandinavia.

I definitely see this as an opportunity; on average I get one new international client request per day even though I specifically say on my website I don't take in more international clients (I do make exceptions). Unless it's an obvious hoax I always trust people and that trust is always rewarded. I send the final master and request money later. This is something all clients like and it provides a smoother experience, and makes my life easier too.

[Thomas W. Bethe]

As others have sail PayPal * is good for this type of thing. We dealt with a person in Hungary who only would deal with us if he could send a Western Union money order which worked well but I had a dickens of a time trying to find someone to give us the money. It turned out that a large supermarket chain near here does this all the time and is a representative of Western Union. They cashed the check with no problems once we found them.

So far no real problems with overseas clients. I have more problems with local clients.

All the usual cautions apply. There was a big scam going on about a year ago on EBAY. People were being paid with Postal Money orders that were either stolen or forged. You did not know until about 6 weeks later when the check failed to clear and you had the USPS wanting their money back. Now EBAY is all PayPal. The postal money orders looked real and were properly done it was just that there was no money to be paid from.

Best of luck!

*although on one occasion they locked our account because an EBAY package, sent by air, took 6 weeks to get from Chicago to London and the recipient put a hold on his money but PayPal put a hold on all of the money in our account <NOT FUN>. It got resolved very quickly when the package arrived. (the air carrier basically lost the package for 5 weeks and it took another week to clear British Customs)

[24-96 Mastering]

Originally Posted by Lagerfeldt

PayPal in most cases. Just be aware that PayPal is a really, really sucky company.

+1

INSANELY expensive (up to 6% fees!!!), customer service non-existent, and they will cease your account if they deem it necessary for (a lengthy and complicated) verification process. Imagine you have a substantial amount of cash on your paypal account and then they just freeze it, meaning you can't get to it and there's no way of knowing how long they will take to evaluate your documents. Scary situation if there are bills to be paid. After that experience, I always get my cash out of paypal immediately after receiving a payment.

I accept wire transfer, credit card payment and paypal. Out of the 3, wiring is the cheapest (free within europe), paypal fast and safe (but expensive) and credit card is a happy medium between the two.

[Waltz Mastering]

I find that working with client's from around the world has given me a great opportunity to work on quality music that sometimes doesn't exists locally or regionally.

Generally, I have never had a problem getting paid with a Credit card or Pay Pal from an international client and found that it is not any different from working or getting paid from a client here in the U.S. if business is run in a professional manner.

TW

[Lagerfeldt]

Originally Posted by 24-96 Mastering

+1

INSANELY expensive (up to 6% fees!!!), customer service non-existent, and they will cease your account if they deem it necessary for (a lengthy and complicated) verification process. Imagine you have a substantial amount of cash on your paypal account and then they just freeze it, meaning you can't get to it and there's no way of knowing how long they will take to evaluate your documents.

Exactly.

I had too much money going in and they wanted extra verification of my identity. They simply froze my account (but only for outgoing money of course...).

It took me 3 full months to finally get access - and ONLY after I decided to write a snail mail letter to Ireland (headquarters for the European division).

Emails to PayPal customer service are NOT replied on an individual basis and you will NOT get help with any non-standard problems, even as a business. It is simply not possible. They do NOT read and respond to your questions but only post from a list of standard replies.

So if you happen to encounter a problem you are basically at the mercy of PayPal.

[Waltz Mastering]

+2 Sometimes for what ever reason they deem to be a red flag you are left at the mercy of paypal and it can be VERY frustrating, but it is still one of the most secure online payment processes.

[Lagerfeldt]

There's no fee for transferring money from your PayPal to your regular bank account (above a certain limit).

I empty my account a couple of times a month, each time the total is about $1,000. That at least minimizes the potential damage in the future.

[Whitecat]

Originally Posted by Daft

The most troublesome country I have found is the USA.

I had huge problems getting paid by a major label:
- 30% withholding tax was retained until I had visited the US Embassy in person to obtain a TAX code
- Label's refusal to pay VAT
- 18 months form invoice to final payment (and still no VAT)

why would a US label be liable for VAT? just curious. if a master is considered goods-for-export to a non-EU country it can be zero-rated, at least in the UK anyway.

[mdjice]

Originally Posted by jayfrigo

What do you guys do about taking payment from international clients? Credit cards seem to work in most cases, but are there different or better options? What risks concern you, and what procedures have you put in place to minimize those risks?

So far I've been lucky and haven't been burned on international jobs. I've had clients from all over North America, several places in South America, much of Europe, Australia, and Japan. I've not yet done any business with clients in Africa or Southeast Asia. The world is becoming more international, and the internet brings everybody close. This can be an opportunity, or a problem. What do you guys think?

I used paypal for a transaction from France. it worked great but ...the fee was pretty big IMO.
on $8000 the fee was around $300 or more if I remember well.
The good thing though was that I could keep the funds in Euros or change to dollars and that's usefull because if I want to buy equipment in Euros I don't lose my A$$ off like if I would pay in dollars

[Riccardo]

Bank transfer or paypal for international clients.
Masters delivered after full payment is received. I hate to do this but in today's climate it is unfortunately necessary.........

[The MPCist]

TT bank transfer for me. Works wonderfully!

[bgrotto]

I've gotta rookie question: does providing the necessary info for a bank transfer pose any threat to you? I'm a bit paranoid about doing a bank transfer, though I have no idea why....

[Lagerfeldt]

Originally Posted by bgrotto

I've gotta rookie question: does providing the necessary info for a bank transfer pose any threat to you? I'm a bit paranoid about doing a bank transfer, though I have no idea why....

Yes, it could be used in possible fraud, either ID theft or more likely the Nigerian cheque scam. Normally this would require you to deposit the cheque but some banks accept cheques automatically if it's accompanied by some relevant info like your bank account and name. Though it's none of your fault a lot of banks will make you pay a fee + percentage of the bounced cheque as a penalty.

[Tarekith]

Paypal here too, the exchange rate has gotten me a few clients this way. Unlike others here, I've always had good luck with their customer support when I had any issues. Emails answered in less than 24 hours. The fees suck yes, but it's the option everyone knows so I don't mind too much.

[Edward_Vinatea]

I think I mentioned this on "how is the economy...." thread. There was a user who came to our online service and ordered with his credit card through PayPal. Later on, PayPal received a notice from the card holder's bank stating that he didn't recognize that charge, period. So, PayPal froze the money and at the end of their "investigation", they returned the money to the card holder's bank account. Even though we could prove the user's activity with logs and email, PayPal was not interested in the evidence. Why? Because we couldn't provide his signature of the accepted and received services {Like when you ship out goods}. Bottom line, PayPal doesn't protect those sellers who do online business such as mixing, mastering or sell any type of downloads including software.

Our online business has always worked with people pretty much depending upon the honor system, but there are indeed some bad apples out there.

Now this a bit OT, would this be a great site to create a thread listing all the bad apples that come to steal, troll, and pretty much waste professional engineers' time? I personally think that it wouldn't be a bad idea. It might save another member or studio owner - some pretty wasteful time interacting with people who: A/ Are not who they say they are. B/ Mix terribly and live in a state of delusion and even after you give them good advise, they continue abusing your email or asking for mastering samples. { I don't think this is too taxing or problematic because I come to a point where I ignore their emails}. C/ Are trying to hit you with some Nigerian scam. D/ they order using stolen cards, or cards taken from family or friends and E/ Order and after receiving the masters - initiate a CC chargeback arguing that your work was not good enough. {Obviously this can be a legitimate claim, but most us of know that it's usually a problem with the client's mix and his ignorance about what mastering is or does}

This is of course, just a thought and maybe not a good idea anyway, but before I abandon it, I'd like to hear Jay's comments about the need {or not} of creating a thread like that.

Regards,

[Whitecat]

It seems to me that one's priorities are pretty f*cked if they're going about trying to get mastering done on stolen credit cards. Of all the things you could acquire...

[Edward_Vinatea]

Originally Posted by terminal3

It seems to me that one's priorities are pretty f*cked if they're going about trying to get mastering done on stolen credit cards. Of all the things you could acquire...

I don't know if you are an ME or not but, would it be useful to you if you knew his: IP address, username {they usually use the same aliases}, name of the {stolen} cardholder, and other interesting details they lied about on their registration form {like name, last name, country, city, phone, the name of the songs, or album title, clips of the music, etc.) ??

Here is a spin to the story above, the guy/user who ordered mastering - turns out IS the credit cardholder . Not only did he steal our service, he gave me high marks for a job well done.

[Riccardo]

Originally Posted by Edward_Vinatea

Now this a bit OT, would this be a great site to create a thread listing all the bad apples that come to steal, troll, and pretty much waste professional engineers' time? I personally think that it wouldn't be a bad idea. It might save another member or studio owner - some pretty wasteful time interacting with people who: A/ Are not who they say they are. B/ Mix terribly and live in a state of delusion and even after you give them good advise, they continue abusing your email or asking for mastering samples. { I don't think this is too taxing or problematic because I come to a point where I ignore their emails}. C/ Are trying to hit you with some Nigerian scam. D/ they order using stolen cards, or cards taken from family or friends and E/ Order and after receiving the masters - initiate a CC chargeback arguing that your work was not good enough. {Obviously this can be a legitimate claim, but most us of know that it's usually a problem with the client's mix and his ignorance about what mastering is or does}

This is of course, just a thought and maybe not a good idea anyway, but before I abandon it, I'd like to hear Jay's comments about the need {or not} of creating a thread like that.

Regards,

Edward
Stolen card should be reported to the authorities (Police, card issuers) and regarding non paying customers you could take legal action. Posting lists, people names, identities or allegations about them is not allowed on a public forum.

The troubles a caused about reversed charges, non paying customers and such have already been discussed in a thread in the past. As well as discussing it here as an appendix to the "payment methods" also try a search.

[Riccardo]

It would appear that the safest way is after all a bank wire after refs (partial files?) approval and before shipping?

The problem with this is that there are some countries in Europe not using the Euros where banks do charge a considerable amount of money as already stated by Lagerfelt.
Same thing applies if you are sending funds to the USA and the rest of the world.

[Edward_Vinatea]

Originally Posted by Riccardo

Edward
Stolen card should be reported to the authorities (Police, card issuers)

You {the ME}can't call the police for that. The cardholder has to call his/her bank to notify that was lost or stolen. That's the USA of course.

and regarding non paying customers you could take legal action.

You can't go after a person with a false identity, now can you? But, let's suppose that it is the cardholder as in my situation. I have to prove now that he is the guy who signed up our online form. Is this is easy? No, and it's not worth it either. You can pay at least $2000 in lawyer's fees or months of wasted time trying to get your case through a US civil court system.

Posting lists, people names, identities or allegations about them is not allowed on a public forum.

There is nothing wrong posting the IP addresses of scammers. It's done all the time on the web. Besides neitherthe names are real nor their details. But it may help one pick up clues about their online profile. Posting their song clips for everyone to hear - on the other hand -maybe a bit too 'revealing'.

Originally Posted by Riccardo

It would appear that the safest way is after all a bank wire after refs (partial files?) approval and before shipping?

You want to give your bank details to a stranger asking if he can send you a payment? That's fine then. But, I would probably be hesitating about doing that. Am I wrong for being worried about that? I mean, can someone also use these same bank details to take money rather than deposit it?

Regards,

[andre tchmil]

Originally Posted by Lagerfeldt

Exactly.

I had too much money going in and they wanted extra verification of my identity. They simply froze my account (but only for outgoing money of course...).

It took me 3 full months to finally get access - and ONLY after I decided to write a snail mail letter to Ireland (headquarters for the European division).

Emails to PayPal customer service are NOT replied on an individual basis and you will NOT get help with any non-standard problems, even as a business. It is simply not possible. They do NOT read and respond to your questions but only post from a list of standard replies.

So if you happen to encounter a problem you are basically at the mercy of PayPal.

Would you mind sharing that irish email address ?
I guess they could use a letter from me too.

Imagine, they accepted a copy of my ID card as a valid proof of my identity , but not the address on that same ID card.

[ONDRAY]

Originally Posted by mdjice

I used paypal for a transaction from France. it worked great but ...the fee was pretty big IMO.
on $8000 the fee was around $300 or more if I remember well.
The good thing though was that I could keep the funds in Euros or change to dollars and that's usefull because if I want to buy equipment in Euros I don't lose my A$$ off like if I would pay in dollars

Western Union for those transfers, unless the client wants to pay the PayPal fee for their own convenience.

My invoices state that any PayPal transfer over $1000 the client must pay the PayPal fee, so far no issues. Mind you I don't have too many album clients, lot's of singles. But the 3 times I did the client paid their PayPal convenience charge, not me. I told them they can wire transfer, send in a certified cheque or use western union. But since they want their masters fast, they ate the paypal fees.

[Lagerfeldt]

Originally Posted by andre tchmil

Would you mind sharing that irish email address ?
I guess they could use a letter from me too.

Imagine, they accepted a copy of my ID card as a valid proof of my identity , but not the address on that same ID card.

It's not an email address as I said. It's a snail mail address in Ireland. I had to write and print a letter to the legal department in Ireland.

The address is hidden somewhere on the PayPal website. This is the one:

PayPal
Attention: PPEL Customer Complaints
PO Box 9473
Dublin 15
Ireland

Next step is to file an official complaint with the EU and Financial Ombudsman.

[macc]

Well, I take about 95% of my funds through paypal as my customers are alllll over the globe.

But I just got the biggest mastering payment I've had for a *proper* label by bank transfer from the US. So at the moment I am a big fan of that method

Big day here