BBE Sonic Maximizer

[DJ ALX]

Hi there,

I always mix my own stuff and generally I master my own CDs.

Recently Ive been getting out of digital domain and going analog.

Jus got a Mackie 32-8 console , Roland SRV330, waiting for my Alesis Midiverb4 and Yamaha SPX90.

Ive heard that BBE sonic maximizer can do miracles to mixes.

My question is WHEN to use it.

Should i put it as an insert on my stereo mix right before I do my mixdown?

Ir should I use it when Im mastering ALL the tracks for a CD? (put if right before the mastering limiter).


Thanks.

[Everlast]

Probably better solution is to use it on individual tracks if they actually need any of that...

[Sunbreak Music]

I wouldn't put it on the bus. In my experience, psychoacoustic processors create a brief moment of "wow!" followed by years of regret.

Might be useful on tracks as mentioned.

[camerondye]

Originally Posted by Sunbreak Music

I wouldn't put it on the bus. In my experience, psychoacoustic processors create a brief moment of "wow!" followed by years of regret.

Might be useful on tracks as mentioned.

This is exactly perfectly right, nothing more to be said...
cam

[bob katz]

Originally Posted by Sunbreak Music

I wouldn't put it on the bus. In my experience, psychoacoustic processors create a brief moment of "wow!" followed by years of regret.

Might be useful on tracks as mentioned.

BBE is not a "psychoacoustic processor". It's a distortion generator, and it can sound quite nasty. But regardless, I agree with the sentiment.

[MASSIVE Master]

I used to use them on bassists that were too lazy to change their strings. And "way back when" they (only occasionally) came in handy on tape-to-tape transfer. Otherwise, they were paperweights.

[janjaal]

i use it only on vocalz...

[Bob Yordan]

I have one in my new *) "retro mixing & plug development music room" among other "not ordinary used' OTB units .




*) Yup got 3 music rooms now.

[aeonsound]

i've got one of the designed-for-hifi BBE maximizers. i bought it to look at the circuit, provide a spare rack case if needed, and to get my monitor at the perfect height

[Edward_Vinatea]

I had a BBE sonic maximizer "Maxie" which I used in the 80's to make cassette copies. It did improve the sound of the copies. It's more like a phase shift and amplitude correction unit to the speaker/amplifier interface though.

Regards,

[Odeon-Mastering]

Back at my live mixing days I used for buzuki (greek traditional instrument)
I never thought it would be any good for mastering though.

[AUDIOBOMBER]

some P.A. guys use to put the bbe in the master when they dont manage to make the system sound right.
i always switch it off

alex
castle mastering

[fader8]

Originally Posted by DJ ALX

Ive heard that BBE sonic maximizer can do miracles to mixes.

That's scary. Wherever did you hear that?

Originally Posted by DJ ALX

My question is WHEN to use it.

IMO, never. This process was originally developed to improve speech intelligibility in high noise and/or reverberant environments. So if you're looking to improve RASTI scores from folded horns in an aircraft hangar, then by all means give it a go.

At some point I have to guess that the marketing folks discovered that if you set it just right you could make a crappy speaker sound a little better. There's some truth to that, actually. For example Bosch presently licenses the process for its portable radio/cd players. The point is that it's more specific to the playback medium and has no place in mastering. But you do what you like.

[Edward_Vinatea]

Originally Posted by DJ ALX

Hi there,

My question is WHEN to use it.

.

To answer your question in short: Never use it for mastering.

Regards,

[Sunbreak Music]

Originally Posted by bob katz

BBE is not a "psychoacoustic processor". It's a distortion generator, and it can sound quite nasty. But regardless, I agree with the sentiment.

Hi Bob--welcome back.

Why don't you think it qualifies? I haven't had one in years, and back then my testing abilities were much less sophisticated, but even if it is a "distortion generator", I don't think that disqualifies it.

I do remember it having a distinct and pronounced effect on the equal loudness contour, and for a less experienced engineer working in a less than optimal work space, it can in the short term "sound better".

When it comes to loudness maximizers (harmonic/distortion generators), aren't they used to increase "apparent loudness"? I mean, there is what is does, and then there's what it is. After all, an old school "stereo widener" is just a "comb-filtering inducer", ain't it?

If there are criteria to be met in order to classify something as "psychoacoustic processor", I'll gladly remove it from my list.

[bob katz]

Originally Posted by Sunbreak Music

Hi Bob--welcome back.

Glad to be back.Well, in the sense that loudness is psychoacoustic perception, then the BBE qualifies. But it is simply a primitive processor that makes use of the most basic psychoacoustic principle, that high frequency content (e.g. high frequency distortion) increases loudness. If you label it a "primitive psychcoacoustic processor" I wouldn't differ from you.

To pass off a distortion generator as making things sound "better" is going down a dark path. Though in mastering we use distortion creatively all the time, so we're all walking on the dark side. I've never heard the BBE used subtly on a mix, though, whenever I get a mix from someone who used it on a bus I cringe, the hairs on the back of my arms all go up. But like the Aphex, when used as a mix tool sparingly on a specific instrument, it can make a dense mix easier to manage. Use the best monitoring possible to warn you when you're going too far and keep the mastering engineer's hairs from stinging :-).

BK

[badmark]

Originally Posted by bob katz

Though in mastering we use distortion creatively all the time, so we're all walking on the dark side.

Thanks for the tip. In fact, thanks in general for all your sound advice!

[Adam Dempsey]

Originally Posted by Sunbreak Music

After all, an old school "stereo widener" is just a "comb-filtering inducer", ain't it?

No, from a custom one I used years ago, it'll take the L channel, polarity invert it & send it to the right, and take the R ch, polarity invert it & send it to the left, leaving the sum (mono) signal intact, and with selectable gain make up to keep sum & diff matched depending on the amount of "width" selected. Call it psychoacoustic, call it psychedelic..

[Sunbreak Music]

Originally Posted by Boomshanka

No, from a custom one I used years ago, it'll take the L channel, polarity invert it & mix it to the right, and take the R ch, polarity invert it & mix it to the left, leaving the sum (mono) signal intact, and with selectable gain make up to keep sum & diff matched depending on the amount of "width" selected.

It was supposed to be tongue-in-cheek.

But pyschedelic is always cool!

[Cellotron]

Originally Posted by Boomshanka

No, from a custom one I used years ago, it'll take the L channel, polarity invert it & send it to the right, and take the R ch, polarity invert it & send it to the left, leaving the sum (mono) signal intact, and with selectable gain make up to keep sum & diff matched depending on the amount of "width" selected. Call it psychoacoustic, call it psychedelic..

Yeah - that's how the "stereo width" feature works on the SPL Vitalizer, who were the ones I'm aware of that came up with the wording "psycho-acoustic equalizer" for their product.

Best regards,
Steve Berson

[DJ ALX]

First thing's first...

I do hip hop production, recording, engineering and mixing.
My style is mostly grimey but yet clean (mixingwise).
A few years ago I used to master in a dedicated mastering facility and theyd run my signal through an Avalon Mastering EQ, a high end mastering compressor, then digitize at 24bit 96khz in Sonic Solution and then maybe use some Weiss EQ and multiband compressor (not sure of the latter).

They never had a 150 dollar sonic maximizer.
But the results were slammin!

Originally Posted by bob katz

To pass off a distortion generator as making things sound "better" is going down a dark path. Though in mastering we use distortion creatively all the time, so we're all walking on the dark side. I've never heard the BBE used subtly on a mix, though, whenever I get a mix from someone who used it on a bus I cringe, the hairs on the back of my arms all go up. But like the Aphex, when used as a mix tool sparingly on a specific instrument, it can make a dense mix easier to manage. Use the best monitoring possible to warn you when you're going too far and keep the mastering engineer's hairs from stinging :-).

BK

I know what youre talking about.
I used to print my mixes on tape and my levels would be hot so I can have that tape saturation/distortion. At the mastering facility the ME told me that he prefered it better on 1/4" tape (or even 1/2") rather than a cold digital mix on a DAT tape. He told me that if my levels are hot and the drums are in the reds then I will be a step ahead mastering wise (of course depending on what I want to do in each project).


Nowadays things dont work out in the music business like they used to.
From analog mixing I went to DAW mixing and on Yamaha 02r mixing (but still printed mix on tape whenever I had the funds to buy tape).

Now from DAW/plugins I went to analog again.
I bought a Mackie 32-8, some outboard gear and Im back in the analog domain again. Well semi analog since my multitrack is digital coming out through my RME Fireface 800 and Alesis AI3s.

I want to gather some low budget gadgets so I can be able to master my own stuff if and when i have to.

At a digital studio they own the BBE plug in version of the hardware, and i recently ran a grimey mix through it, tweaked JUST A BIT the Lo and Process knob and it instantly shined. Then i put the Lo knob back to zero cos I DID have the low end in the mix. Then I put a hard mastering Limiter and it was by 70% ( ) similar to what a commercial CD (that i admire and study) sounds like. The reference CD im talking about is grimey with extreme values on EQ, compression, distortion and limiting. But it sold millions worldwide. I say 70% cos i used most of the same gear in the tracking process (adat ad/da, Ensoniq EPS, and some other nice stuff) and i leave the 30% to the SSL and other stuff that it mightve been mixed with. But still my mix with such low budget gear gave me the impression that I was almost there.

What Im saying here is that If I have a particular texture in mind is it right to use the BBE in mastering? Again, I KNOW that i will not use it for ALL my projects. Just a project or two that really need that type of enhancement. As I said, my production is distorted and grimey but yet clean in mix.

I understand that if i want it on drums I should only put it on drums but Id have to own it first and then find out.
If the hardware has similar (or better) sound than the plug in then I can afford to buy it even if i use it on one project.

My question shouldve been stated better: Is this BBE sonic maximizer made for mastering or for mixing?

All your help will be highly appreciated!

[DJ ALX]

Originally Posted by Odeon-Mastering

Back at my live mixing days I used for buzuki (greek traditional instrument)
I never thought it would be any good for mastering though.

Are you greek?

[badmark]

Is there any perceptible difference between the original software bbe sonic maximizer (which I own but haven't used in a while) and the nomad factory one that came out more recently?

[Odeon-Mastering]

Originally Posted by DJ ALX

Are you greek?

Yes

[Odeon-Mastering]

Originally Posted by DJ ALX

What Im saying here is that If I have a particular texture in mind is it right to use the BBE in mastering? Again, I KNOW that i will not use it for ALL my projects. Just a project or two that really need that type of enhancement. As I said, my production is distorted and grimey but yet clean in mix.

Some ppl use bus compressors, some others tape emulation etc. I trully believe u should use anything tha will bring your mix sonically to your original vision. Mastering is foremost about making your CD ready for duplication. The texture of the sound is the producer's duty. BUT be aware the line is very fine I am sure you understand since you have seen the mastering flow in a professional studio (probably I know the one you are talking about). So there is a considerable amount of spillage between production desicions and the ones made at the pre-mastering stage. Also I am sure you realise that in a not so great listening enviroment (compromised monitoring and accoustics ) making decisions about overall sound is a rather risky task, that s why many ppl fall in the trap of overusing processors and this is one of the reasons that most engineers will advice against using bus compressors, EQs or enhancers. Since I do not know your setup all this might be irrelevant, aslo the subject of bus processing has been discussed thoroughly in other threads.

Originally Posted by DJ ALX

I understand that if i want it on drums I should only put it on drums but Id have to own it first and then find out.
If the hardware has similar (or better) sound than the plug in then I can afford to buy it even if i use it on one project.

From my limited personal experience it worked miracles on instruments like guitars, buzuki etc and I have only used it live (the original 1u unit).

Originally Posted by DJ ALX

My question shouldve been stated better: Is this BBE sonic maximizer made for mastering or for mixing?

Hmm I do not know the history of the unit, but I have a feeling, that it was not a very high quality unit and you rarely see this kind of stuff in professional mastering studios. So my GUESS is mixing.

[bob katz]

Originally Posted by DJ ALX

What Im saying here is that If I have a particular texture in mind is it right to use the BBE in mastering?

If you're mix is as "perfect" as you can make it. And you go to a mastering house that has high quality monitoring and acoustics and you all decide that a little spice is a good thing, and you add the BBE to the chain in a manner where it will preserve the transparency of the source and only add it's "goodness" then I would certainly not object. I would suggest using a high resolution mastering-quality mixer (summing box) to mix in the BBE effect, not the BBE's "wet/dry" mixer since the box is simply not a high-quality piece of gear in the first place.

Let's examine your premise:

There are mixes which are very nicely polished and seem to be perfect and which through demonstration on the mastering side may benefit from the addition of some kind of distortion in the mastering session. (Which can come from any processor, either intentional or simply part of the chain).

But then, there are those mixes which are not quite perfect, which you are not quite happy with. Really, these mixes should be worked on the mix side until you are happy. Because the act of adding something on the mastering side supposedly to obtain character, texture, or whatever effect----may affect or imbalance some other aspect of this less than perfect mix and the cure may not prove better than the disease. Get your mix sounding the way you are looking for if at all possible.

The only exceptions would be when you have doubts and are adding bus processes (like a tape simulator, or even a bus compressor or the BBE) to "enhance" your mix after you made it. If your monitoring is very high resolution and you know what you're doing and you've been working with a mastering engineer for a long time, then go ahead and do it because you feel comfortable. But when in doubt, please provide two versions to be ironed out at the mastering house.

[fader8]

Originally Posted by DJ ALX

My question shouldve been stated better: Is this BBE sonic maximizer made for mastering or for mixing?

To add to the excellent responses by Bob and Odeon, I'll add my own tuppence . . .

I think you've really answered the question yourself in proclaiming that you like it as a "texture" for this particular piece. As stated, this is the realm of the Producer and the Mixer. That "anything goes if it sounds great" mentality works in this context, i.e. if that crappy guitar pedal is what makes your snare shine, or gives the B3 that fat tone, then go for it.

Mastering is about maintaining and enhancing that aesthetic, not creating it, and doing so with a modicum of control. With that said, lets revisit the BBE for a moment. As I understand it, (I could be off on a few details) the process involves simply running a high pass and low pass filter in parallel, cornered at about 750Hz, essentially creating an all pass filter. Altering the Q of the low pass allows phase shaping/group delay of the bass. Then the high pass section creates an "air" band, (sloped filter) and adds distortion to that in some shaped way.

Now, that's all fine and good, but this all-in-one implementation is primitive and extremely difficult to control. In principal, you can accomplish the same kind of thing with Rupert Neve's "Masterpiece" hardware, for example, but in a much more controllable way that is conducive to the mastering engineer's workflow where every step needs to be controlled.

I think Bob's suggestion about providing 2 versions is spot on. Then "communicate" with your ME what you're trying to achieve.

[DJ ALX]

Originally Posted by bob katz

If you're mix is as "perfect" as you can make it. And you go to a mastering house that has high quality monitoring and acoustics and you all decide that a little spice is a good thing, and you add the BBE to the chain in a manner where it will preserve the transparency of the source and only add it's "goodness" then I would certainly not object.

Yes I mix and mix and mix till I am satisfied with what I have as a mix, realizing that it is not yet mastered of course.

When I have the budget to book a mastering house I really dont worry about anything. I just give the ME the tapes, give him my input and sit back and watch him (...listen him actually) do his thing.

I would not have to worry about a cheap sonic maximizer and such stuff if im in a room with Avalons, Manleys, ATCs, Weiss and other high end processing equipment.

I posted this thread to get opinions about using the BBE in a custom low cost setup.

Originally Posted by bob katz

But then, there are those mixes which are not quite perfect, which you are not quite happy with. Really, these mixes should be worked on the mix side until you are happy.

Yes, thats where Im coming from anyway.



Thanks for your advise.

[DJ ALX]

Originally Posted by fader8

.

I think Bob's suggestion about providing 2 versions is spot on. Then "communicate" with your ME what you're trying to achieve.

As i said, If i was to take it to a mastering house Id just send my mixes and NOT my mixes with the BBE on the master bus.

Thank you for your advise.

[DJ ALX]

Originally Posted by Odeon-Mastering

Some ppl use bus compressors, some others tape emulation etc. I trully believe u should use anything tha will bring your mix sonically to your original vision. Mastering is foremost about making your CD ready for duplication. The texture of the sound is the producer's duty. BUT be aware the line is very fine I am sure you understand since you have seen the mastering flow in a professional studio (probably I know the one you are talking about). So there is a considerable amount of spillage between production desicions and the ones made at the pre-mastering stage. Also I am sure you realise that in a not so great listening enviroment (compromised monitoring and accoustics ) making decisions about overall sound is a rather risky task, that s why many ppl fall in the trap of overusing processors and this is one of the reasons that most engineers will advice against using bus compressors, EQs or enhancers. Since I do not know your setup all this might be irrelevant, aslo the subject of bus processing has been discussed thoroughly in other threads.

From my limited personal experience it worked miracles on instruments like guitars, buzuki etc and I have only used it live (the original 1u unit).


Hmm I do not know the history of the unit, but I have a feeling, that it was not a very high quality unit and you rarely see this kind of stuff in professional mastering studios. So my GUESS is mixing.

Yes there is only one mastering house in Athens that meets my standards. Ive done work there in the past and it was all banging.

The ME preserves the context of the mixes and just enhances it in general.
There were just a few times when 2-3 mixes had stuff that needed special treatment.

Thank you for the advise.

Ta Leme!