Good examples of Heavy/Aggressive Rock mastering

[TheRealRoach]

I'm looking for some listening suggestions from mastering engineers for modern heavy/techy rock where the dynamics are retained on the final product. Something in the area of Mars Volta ("de-loused..."), but less squashed. In other words some stuff that has ignored the loudness wars.

[TheRealRoach]

bump?

[manman]

I think RAGE german band is a great example of 2001 Welcome to the other side

[Tubefreak]

Tool – Lateralus and 10k days
Dredg - El Cielo
Oceansize – Frames
Textures – Drawning Circles

[Bang]

P.O.D. "When Angels and Serpents Dance"

Jay Baumgardner mixing, Ted Jensen mastering

AMAZING sounding...

[bob katz]

Originally Posted by TheRealRoach

I'm looking for some listening suggestions from mastering engineers for modern heavy/techy rock where the dynamics are retained on the final product. Something in the area of Mars Volta ("de-loused..."), but less squashed. In other words some stuff that has ignored the loudness wars.

I mastered a wonderful hardcore band from Germany that fits this criterion... They're very happy. It rips, it's hot on the average (aggressive), but I made sure it has ebb and flow and impact. Has it ignored the loudness wars? Of course not, but I pushed it as far as I could without hurting it "too much". Kinda like getting burned a little and it doesn't hurt too much.

Try Monochrome. MySpace.com - MONOCHROME - DE - Pop / Hardcore / Punk - www.myspace.com/monochromede


This latest is about their sixth album so they are not a flash in the pan.

[Edward_Vinatea]

Originally Posted by bob katz

I mastered a wonderful hardcore band from Germany that fits this criterion... They're very happy. It rips, it's hot on the average (aggressive), but I made sure it has ebb and flow and impact. Has it ignored the loudness wars? Of course not, but I pushed it as far as I could without hurting it "too much". Kinda like getting burned a little and it doesn't hurt too much.

Try Monochrome. MySpace.com - MONOCHROME - DE - Pop / Hardcore / Punk - www.myspace.com/monochromede


This latest is about their sixth album so they are not a flash in the pan.

Mr. Katz - I know you are not supposed to upload clips without permission, but, do you think that using that MS player to review your work does justice to the sound you've mastered?

Regards,

[bob katz]

Originally Posted by Edward_Vinatea

Mr. Katz - I know you are not supposed to upload clips without permission, but, do you think that using that MS player to review your work does justice to the sound you've mastered?

Regards,

Of course not. And you shouldn't be playing on little computer speakers anyway. If you like the taste of it, get the album :-).

BK

[Edward_Vinatea]

Originally Posted by bob katz

And you shouldn't be playing on little computer speakers anyway. If you like the taste of it, get the album :-).

BK

I don't. My internet computer's soundcard has routing to my main studio monitors. I can still hear what you did though .

Regards,

[bob katz]

Originally Posted by Edward_Vinatea

I don't. My internet computer's soundcard has routing to my main studio monitors. I can still hear what you did though!

Regards,

Great news! How does it sound to you? It was a very good mix to begin with, of course. I fear that the You-Tube thingy is adding all kinds of spongey compression, though. Perhaps I can get permission to put up a non-compressed excerpt on our web site.

[aivoryuk]

Originally Posted by bob katz

Great news! How does it sound to you? It was a very good mix to begin with, of course. I fear that the You-Tube thingy is adding all kinds of spongey compression, though. Perhaps I can get permission to put up a non-compressed excerpt on our web site.

I'm not listening on my normal setup but it sounds like it will translate well. Although even though the band describe themselves of pop/hardcore/punk I would say the err more on the side of indie/pop

[Edward_Vinatea]

Of course it sounds great. Nothing less can be expected of you. But I am afraid I have to agree with aivoryuk, this band is not so "heavy aggressive rock'".

Regards,

[bob katz]

Originally Posted by Edward_Vinatea

Of course it sounds great. Nothing less can be expected of you. But I am afraid I have to agree with aivoryuk, this band is not so "heavy aggressive rock'".

Regards,

Thanks! "Hardcore" is aggressive enough for me. Let's not forget that when Black Sabbath first came out it was considered to be "heavy metal." Now the closest we can describe B.S. of 1973-1980 is "hard rock." Life has gotten grungier in the last decade :-(.

[TheRealRoach]

Thanks for the replies everyone. So the first master came back and it sounds really great so far. We lost a chunk of low end unfortunately along the way be we'll be working to get some of that back with V 2.0.

In the midst of a "loudness" debate with one of the band members, the guitarist asked, "For next time, what can we do to make it louder without sacrificing fidelity.. especially low frequencies." (The band in question uses fairly dense arrangements/harmonies/chords, which sound great, but are dense) So it got me thinking that in order to sound heavy (i.e. heavy guitars), low, booming, deep, etc, one would have to approach the writing with that in mind in order to keep the arrangements sparse enough to make them easier to pump up, without the obvious side effects. It got me thinking about other reference material we have been listening to, which included Fall Out Boy. I'm not a huge fan personally, but after listening to their records, I recognize that the loudness war may be altering the music production all the way back to the writing phase. Simpler power-chord based riffs to retain clarity, very dry production overall, and spacious arrangements. I'm not really feeling that this is a good thing.

[bob katz]

Originally Posted by TheRealRoach

I recognize that the loudness war may be altering the music production all the way back to the writing phase. Simpler power-chord based riffs to retain clarity, very dry production overall, and spacious arrangements. I'm not really feeling that this is a good thing.

It's certainly not a good thing, dictating style over substance? The loudness race would cause more sameness in music arrangement since snappy drums and peak limiters don't get along!

Every recording has its optimum level (for peak-normalized material) depending on the peak to average level of the musical arrangement. This means that "properly cooked" material will automatically vary in loudness depending on the musical style.
So having an arbitrary loudness goal automatically limits the so you can't even have a loudness goal without limiting the quality of your material. And did you know that unprocessed folk music automatically sounds louder than unprocessed rock at the same peak level? That's the acoustic advantage, which also has to be taken into account. Why did they smash Nora Jones when she automatically will sound loud enough?

Similarly, if I start mastering an album with a song that has a lot of power guitars and high vocals in the mix but not too snappy drums, and then a song comes along with snappy drums... presto, I have to lower the level of the whole album because the first piece will "tolerate" peak limiting without degradation a lot easier than the second. Similarly, I may be able to make Enya sound louder than Green Day...

BK

[Dino]

Hi everyone,

I hope the song I'm adding to this thread is relevant genre wise.

Robot Rock by Daft Punk

In fact the whole album is extremely loud but I've only chose this song to look at more closely and reference for my own mixing purposes.
I'm still pretty new to the mixing side of production and I found it fascinating looking at the Waveform of Robot Rock and checking the Spectroscope as it pays along...seeing how LOUD all the elements are.

I'm really interested to know the type Mastering process that would've occured with this song as I'm working on a track that is quite similar musically.

Is it loads of Compression or Limiting? The waveform looks squashed but it still sounds like everything has room in my opinion.

Thanks

[DeemaBlue]

Originally Posted by TheRealRoach

I'm looking for some listening suggestions from mastering engineers for modern heavy/techy rock where the dynamics are retained on the final product. Something in the area of Mars Volta ("de-loused..."), but less squashed. In other words some stuff that has ignored the loudness wars.

I´m no mastering engineer and it might not be the "modernst" rock.
But it`s some kind of reference to me when it comes to a loud
and evil sound.

ZZ TOP - RYTHMEEN thumbsup

[Robert Randolph]

Originally Posted by Dino

Hi everyone,

I hope the song I'm adding to this thread is relevant genre wise.

Robot Rock by Daft Punk

Winner of 'didn't read the OP' award for 2008

[Adam Dempsey]

Far from anything "hardcore" but White Lion's comeback album Return of the Pride.. mixed in PT with some consultation and mastered all analogue. Some epic tracks. Authentic 80's gtr sounds. Great arrangements. Typically hovers around -14dB rms from memory, I dunno, but it gets well into +3VU. Sounds huge. thumbsup

[Adam Dempsey]

Originally Posted by bob katz

"Hardcore" is aggressive enough for me. Let's not forget that when Black Sabbath first came out it was considered to be "heavy metal." Now the closest we can describe B.S. of 1973-1980 is "hard rock."

Exactly. As was Motörhead... even KISS "hard rock" (at least in my 'hood at the time, though obviously worlds apart from Motörhead's raw energy).
Good to hear from you, Bob.
A happy, healthy & prosperous new year to all. Rock on.

[bob katz]

Originally Posted by Boomshanka

Far from anything "hardcore" but White Lion's comeback album Return of the Pride.. mixed in PT with some consultation and mastered all analogue. Some epic tracks. Authentic 80's gtr sounds. Great arrangements. Typically hovers around -14dB rms from memory, I dunno, but it gets well into +3VU. Sounds huge. thumbsup

Thanks for the recommendation, Adam. What year was that put out? The later, the better. Always looking for exemplary (recent) examples to show my clients.

[kosmokrator]

Bob,

do you know who mixed the Monochrome-tracks?

[leary]

i think it was marten (the drummer or bassist).

[bob katz]

Originally Posted by leary

i think it was marten (the drummer or bassist).

No, Marten didn't mix it. Here's a letter from Marten...

"We just had a critical listen of your mastering with recording engineer Thomas and mixing engineer Boeni in the studio. We all like it a lot !!! It is great that you preserved the dynamics within the songs, it's nice when the chorus kicks in and it just pulls you in! The tonality between the different songs is nice and it all comes together very homogeneously, but still leaves enough scope for the songs to have a distinct character. "

I hope these guys stay together for a long time, they do know how to listen!

BK

[Adam Dempsey]

Originally Posted by bob katz

Thanks for the recommendation, Adam. What year was that put out? The later, the better. Always looking for exemplary (recent) examples to show my clients.

Hi Bob. Mixed in Copenhagen & mastered here late '07, released April '08. Different album versions (bonus tracks) for US, Japan & Europe. These guys toured with Aerosmith, ACDC, Motley Crue, et al, and are known for tunes with more lyrical "weight" (and dynamic range) than most. thumbsup