Distortion vs Dynamics

[pootkao]

Hey you smart and experienced mastering engineers. I need some advice.

I'm in the middle of mixing a project that has a lot of dynamic range. Its not aimed at commercial radio, so we don't need things stupid-hot. I don't WANT things stupid-hot. But I want the loudest parts to at least come close to, say Feist's first album (Let It Die) or Hayden or Nick Cave or some of the mellower indie/alt stuff out there.

I've been sending files to the mastering engineer as I mix, and he's sending me back samples. And I'm not happy. The loudest parts are distorting. Sometimes it sounds like attack/release distortion, sometimes its just plain old distortion. Now, I know that there's lots of distortion going on these days. I was listening to the new Coldplay and Interpol's Antics in the studio and there's lots, but I don't need this record that smashed.

Besides, his masters are at least 3 dB quieter than that stuff and its still distorting.

His gear: Manley Slam, GML EQ. Both pieces are relatively new to him (recent investments) and he's not a full-time mastering engineer (hence a lower rate, perhaps hence my scenario.)

Question: Are my mixes just too damn dynamic? Shouldn't we be able to at least get the loudest parts CLOSE without too much distortion?

I can upload a couple samples (mixed & mastered) if anyone has time today to check stuff out. I'm a little bit nervous, cuz this MUST be off to get pressed on Tuesday, and if he can't deliver better I'm just gonna have to rent some gear and do it myself tomorrow, but I don't want to tie his hands unnecessarily if its not really his fault/shoddy work.

[Edward_Vinatea]

Originally Posted by pootkao

Hey you smart and experienced mastering engineers. I need some advice.

I'm in the middle of mixing a project that has a lot of dynamic range. Its not aimed at commercial radio, so we don't need things stupid-hot. I don't WANT things stupid-hot. But I want the loudest parts to at least come close to, say Feist's first album (Let It Die) or Hayden or Nick Cave or some of the mellower indie/alt stuff out there.

I've been sending files to the mastering engineer as I mix, and he's sending me back samples. And I'm not happy. The loudest parts are distorting. Sometimes it sounds like attack/release distortion, sometimes its just plain old distortion. Now, I know that there's lots of distortion going on these days. I was listening to the new Coldplay and Interpol's Antics in the studio and there's lots, but I don't need this record that smashed.

Besides, his masters are at least 3 dB quieter than that stuff and its still distorting.

His gear: Manley Slam, GML EQ. Both pieces are relatively new to him (recent investments) and he's not a full-time mastering engineer (hence a lower rate, perhaps hence my scenario.)

Question: Are my mixes just too damn dynamic? Shouldn't we be able to at least get the loudest parts CLOSE without too much distortion?

I can upload a couple samples (mixed & mastered) if anyone has time today to check stuff out. I'm a little bit nervous, cuz this MUST be off to get pressed on Tuesday, and if he can't deliver better I'm just gonna have to rent some gear and do it myself tomorrow, but I don't want to tie his hands unnecessarily if its not really his fault/shoddy work.

It would be helpful if you do upload a wav sample of your mix and the sample you received. Otherwise we will only be speculating here.

Regards,

[Sunbreak Music]

I'm pretty sure it's Bob Katz I'm quoting, but "it's not how loud you make it, it's how you make it loud"......

[Thomas W. Bethe]

What are your peaks and the RMS on the material you are sending the mastering engineer? If they are really hot and he does not take it down a couple of dBs and and tries to master it the sound will NOT be good. Not sure who you are using or what your stuff sounds like BUT if you are sending dynamic material it should come back sounding dynamic without getting distorted in the process. Best to hear the before and after samples. You don't have to post the whole song but 30 seconds of where it is really bad would be helpful to give you some guidance. Hope this helps.

[CKK]

If all fails - DONT SEND IT TO THE PRESS!!! No matter how much it "must" be ready for print this tuesday - you really cant afford to make xxxxx copies that neither you or your client is satisfied with.

Spend the cash and let the pro's have a go at it, even if it will delay the print for a week or two.

[pootkao]

Hey guys

Thanks so far. Keep em coming.

I'm gonna post before and after samples in about 30 minutes, just gotta finish off this one mix first.

[24-96 Mastering]

Two thoughts:

1. The last Feist album is pretty loud and pretty distorted (can't remember if it was heavy limiting or very soft clipping). Very (intentionally) low-fi sounding, high rms mixes to begin with. (That's how I remember it, hope I'm not wrong about it)
2. Either your guy isn't finding "the best way" to make it loud or you just are very conscious about distortion - because you know the before very well, whereas you have never heard the before of Feist. Can't tell without hearing a sample.

Best to communicate openly with your guy and if that doesn't produce the results you're looking for, get a second opinion.

[heathen]

I agree don't send it out until you can find a well respected ME who can do the job properly. I just finished working on a project that was extremely dynamic, actually some songs were 12 minute epics which had all sorts of stuff happening from soft world music to chunky metal in the 1 song.

I'm so glad the producer got a superb mastering dude to put the icing on the cake for him.

He brought the project to me for analog sweetinging and mixing stems and adding reverbs and delays and other fx to the instuments and vox inside the mix before mastering, ummm there were still 30 stereo stems in some tracks which we mixed down to stereo.

Anyway the mixes sounded great we were both very happy, from the outset he stressed it does not have to be super loud so we left a lot of dynamics in there and boy did the mastering engineer work for his moolah, . But it was a fantastic job way surpassing my expectations.

Was about $2000AU but worth every cent.

So yeah hold out if possible and find someone who really knows what they are doing if it's an important project.

[kjg]

Feist's 2004 "Let It Die" is not that loud at all. If your ME has trouble getting the loudest parts of your mixes to match that without distortion he is doing something wrong. Not matter how dynamic your mixes are, you are saying that you want the louder part at that level, not the whole mix, right?

Maybe he is overloading his chain?

regards,
kjg

[pootkao]

hey folks

sorry for the lack of sample thus far. he's doing some changes and i made a couple changes to a couple mixes.

i'll have new a couple new mastered tracks within the hour. hopefully its improved.

and yeah, my feeling the whole time has been that he's overloading his chain somewhere. is the Manley Slam finicky about input levels at all?

its funny, i always tell my clients to drop the cash and go hire a great pro for mastering. and i've always done so myself for other projects. this is what happens when i don't follow my own advice, and on a project thats really important to me. bleck.

at the end of the day, i think i'm stuck with what he does - unless someone wants to do 16 tracks and not get paid till the week after Christmas. ha. its for a limited run special edition of 1000 anyways. its gonna sell out, so when i re-press i imagine i'll remaster if today and tomorrow don't go well.