Digital Mastering Warming Options

[tomasrangel]

Im trying to warming up my dance music tracks on mastering using some stuff like camelphat 3, waves maxbass, filterscape Q6 dynamic EQ, voxengo soniformer, but i can´t get that cool warm sound, specially on low frequencies.

Observing the low frequencies of a great dance music mastering, i could notice with Pinguin Audio Meter that when the bass drum "kicks" the punch come from mid lows to lowest freq like a wave, making it sounds really fat in a high definition.

Is it possible to get this results with digital mastering, or it comes from analog tape saturation or valve hardware stuff ?

Witch plugins can do something interesting for it?

Cheers

[Ben F]

If you are also mixing the track, roll off above 15kHz gently on most of the sounds, this will give them a more analogue vibe. Compression is good for this as well.

The warmth in the bass is generally in the 150-250hz range. Make sure there is good space in the mix for these frequencies to come through. 60Hz on the right kick will also put lower harmonics up the entire spectrum, warming up the mix, but you have to be careful not to over do it.

I haven't found any tape emulation plug-ins that sound much like tape. Your best bet is tube compressor emulations that are quite good, UAD are excellent and so is the PSP vintage warmer. It's worth getting professional mastering for a good mix.

[Edward_Vinatea]

The best circuitry oscillation of some of the best analog gear ever designed may have or have not been emulated by a software manufacturer just yet. You may or may not find the 'color' you are looking for just yet either. We may or may not 'dig' what color you are talking about just yet. But - it sure will inspire yet another audio software developer to reproduce whatever it is that inspired you to create this thread in the first place.

Regards,

[tomasrangel]

Originally Posted by Ben F

If you are also mixing the track, roll off above 15kHz gently on most of the sounds, this will give them a more analogue vibe. Compression is good for this as well.

The warmth in the bass is generally in the 150-250hz range. Make sure there is good space in the mix for these frequencies to come through. 60Hz on the right kick will also put lower harmonics up the entire spectrum, warming up the mix, but you have to be careful not to over do it.

I haven't found any tape emulation plug-ins that sound much like tape. Your best bet is tube compressor emulations that are quite good, UAD are excellent and so is the PSP vintage warmer. It's worth getting professional mastering for a good mix.

Thanks Ben !

I was listenning to your job in myspace just now.
Fantastic productions! Just love it.

Cheers

Originally Posted by Edward_Vinatea

The best circuitry oscillation of some of the best analog gear ever designed may have or have not been emulated by a software manufacturer just yet. You may or may not find the 'color' you are looking for just yet either. We may or may not 'dig' what color you are talking about just yet. But - it sure will inspire yet another audio software developer to reproduce whatever it is that inspired you to create this thread in the first place.

Regards,

Hi Edward !

Will be nice if audio software developers reproduce this kind of low freq effect described with plugin. It must be already in the market some algorithm that do the job close to the hardware in a good mix, but i don t know yet, like UAD according to Ben F.
Anyway, the digital world is becoming stronger.
Mastering equipment in Brazil costs a lot money (usually more than double price) because of excessive taxes for imported stuff. Lot labels are making everything digitally here.
There are great tools for an effective piracy break nowadays.

Cheers

[Chaellus]

try colortone plusings by tritone that is the best resource for color in the itb world that i personally know of

[tomasrangel]

Originally Posted by Chaellus

try colortone plusings by tritone that is the best resource for color in the itb world that i personally know of

I just tryed Tritone Colortone.

When i had put colortone pro in the chain, the signal flow became much better in my opinion, even without any ajustment.

Cool one.

Thanks man!

[Chaellus]

glad you like it another one is angeltone... from the same maker it uses convolution technology to use 4 hardware mastering eq's 2 of which is a massive passive and the othe sontec 432 i think really good eq plugin..probably my favorite. for mixing try hydratone

[Darius van H]

Originally Posted by tomasrangel

Observing the low frequencies of a great dance music mastering, i could notice with Pinguin Audio Meter that when the bass drum "kicks" the punch come from mid lows to lowest freq like a wave, making it sounds really fat in a high definition.

What you're observing (or should that read "listening to"?) is great dance production.

The best dance producers are freaks for sound, have spent years developing their craft, and in general don't need or use outside mastering.

So i would say, keep developing your skill, experience and monitoring, learn how your stuff translates in clubs as well as on other systems and in time the warmth will come. Slapping a tube comp over the 2bus wouldn't hurt though.

The meters are good for getting a general understanding of frequency ranges, but at one point you need to turn them off are really start listening!

Good luck!

[Online-Mastering]

A good idea is to have an acoustic expert do a measurement of your mixing room's frequency response. Most project studios have problems in the low frequencies, because of room modes / cancellations / standing waves. This room spectrum is always added to your mix while mixing, because your brain is always trying to CANCEL OUT these room issues. So what happens? It can be that you eq your mix PERFECT to compensate your room. But -in fact- you have create a non-balanced low end with your room characteristics on the mix - like a finger print.

In the specific area (low end) even subtle eq changes can often have dramatic effects. This makes it VERY VERY hard to control the low end perfectly so that your productions can compare with the best. I will not say it is impossible, just very hard. It takes a lot of experience and always listening and comparing your mixes with reference productions.

So if you have the chance to check your room acoustically, I would spend money on this. A more linear frequency response in the low end gives you a good starting point to make the right decisions / adjust your low ebd spectrum properly.

As already said: Keep the upper bass area 100-250 hz in mind. You can warm up a track here often very nicely, but: Be careful not to overdo anything (that will make it boom-ish and take the 'punch feeling' out of the low end. Filter out UNWANTED low end content, that 'steals' loudness and energy and focus on frequency impact in a range between 50-90 Hz, because this is what most club pa system can reproduce without distortion / rumbling.

The above mentioned things are just a general direction to look (or better HEAR) into. And remember most of the warmth comes from GOOD eqing and compression, and not from the tools themselves. You can create a warm feeling with digital tools as well. If you find the right settings for the right paramters.

Hope that helps a bit!

Arne

[inlinenl]

all IMHO most important is finding the right EQ settings for the track, no-compressor is going to save a badly EQ'd track. If you EQ is right then the excitment and drive can be made with some kind off compression. Sidechain and parallel so you wont compress the drive in a way you don't want it. I haven't used a software comp ( other then the weiss-ds1 ) in 5 years .. I would suggest working with a reference track ... just work on your track until it comes close to what your aiming for ...

[macc]

UAD Precision Maximiser is very good for the sort of thing you're after

[Edward_Vinatea]

Originally Posted by Darius van H

The best dance producers are freaks for sound, have spent years developing their craft, and in general don't need or use outside mastering.

AFAIK, here in New York every slamming dance track whether on vinyl or CD is mastered. I was at Cielo NYC last Tuesday testing a track I mastered for a local DJ-producer and the so called "warmth" went away to most people's perceptions at around 1 am ---- Oh well.

Regards,

[UnderTow]

Originally Posted by Darius van H

What you're observing (or should that read "listening to"?) is great dance production.

The best dance producers are freaks for sound, have spent years developing their craft, and in general don't need or use outside mastering.

Darius is spot on. The absolute top guys (at least in the genre I listen to most) do everything themselves and all in the box more often than not. Mostly these guys tend to break many of the rules that are taken for granted in this forum. (Don't master your own tracks or don't mix into a limiter etc) but as Darius points out, these people are completely obsessed with sound.

Production. That's what it is all about. If the source of your sounds isn't good or you don't have the right filter set at the right frequency with the right envelope, no amount of mastering or analogue gear will make it sound great. The Arrangement and sequencing is also essential to getting a good sound. Lengthening or shortening the bass notes by a few milliseconds can make all the difference to how a track will sound and I don't just mean the actual groove. Also the actual sound. Or changing the level relationship between the kick and the bass by a few tenth of a dB can do the same.

As Arne points out, your room acoustics are very important. How can you judge how something will sound if you can't hear it properly? How can you judge the right length of the bass notes if the bass note frequency resonates in your room thus making them seem longer than they really are? How can you set the level of the kick if the fundamental of the kick falls into a standing wave dip nearly removing it completely? (Or is phase cancelled by the distance of your monitors to the rear room of your studio).

And of course in the long term you need feedback from the target sound systems. Not just other monitors in other studios but how will it sound on a 50Kw sound system in a club? Or how will it sound on a 100Kw line array on a tropical beach? Things sound different at these levels on these systems. Only experience will tell you how your mixes will translate.

Having said all that, Voxengo VariSaturator on certain elements of the track sounds quite cool when oversampled.

Alistair

[inlinenl]

Daft Punk, Massive Attack, Portishead, Tiesto, Armin, Ferry .......... shall I go on ..
all sit in their studio working with Izotope, pulling their mouses on those ipy little buttons .... I don't think so ...
maybe the boutique dance stuff yes ... but then maybe 10% ...

[Edward_Vinatea]

I am not sure how experienced the OP is as far as dance music production is concerned. I was initially thinking that he wanted to get some of that analog warmth {as the title suggested} but perhaps I am mistaking. Then it seems that he is referring to the production aspect - maybe he should clarify?. Either way - all the most experienced dance music composer-producers {including myself} master all their tracks. Whether they do it themselves or their mixes are sent out for mastering {by their labels} it gets done IME.

Regards,

[Thomas W. Bethe]

A couple of ideas

Buy yourself a couple of Western Electric 111C transformers and run your final mix thorough them. The can be configured for 150 or 300 or 600 ohms in and the same on the output. These can be had fairly reasonably on EBAY or from the surplus market. Western Electric 111C and 119C Transformer Information

Get yourself a tube line amplifier with transformers on the input and output. If you can find one get one that uses 6SN7 tubes (triodes with a big glass envelope) it will warm up your sound and give you a more of less "classic" sound. If you can't find one there are lots of people around that could build you one from scratch. SRPP 6SN7 Make sure you use really good input and output transformers (UTC, Lundahl or Peerless) and if possible use DC on the filaments for best results. Lot of info here World Tube Audio Portal - Category Output Transformers PP

If you want to experiment use PSP's Vintage Warmer 2 plug-in to see if that gives you the sound you are after. PSPaudioware.com: audio processor & effect plug-ins VST, DirectX, MAS, AudioUnit, RTAS

Best of luck and let us know how it is going!

[Online-Mastering]

Another add-on to my previous post: If you ask me: How do I get the warmth into my track? The answer would not be: Izotope, PSR, analog tool XYZ, whatsoever, BUT: EQ. Simply make the RIGHT boosts and the RIGHT cuts at the right frequency spots / areas. This is the major secret IMHO.

So this refers to my earlier post: If your room doesn't allow precise adjustments, because of a non-linear frequency response, it will always be a hassle to find these EXACTLY right settings for te tools you already have in your arsenal.

All different tools mentioned already CAN be used to make a track warmer / fuller / punchier / more bright or more light.

EQ is the simple answer. If your rooms 'displays' your productions accurately, then you can trust your ears if a setting of an eq (whether it be digital or analog) makes it sound 'warmer' or 'colder', punchier or more muddy...

So, (I am repeating myself now ): EQ EQ EQ

Arne

[Alécio Costa]

If you are into plug-ins, check Crane Song Phoenix, PSP VW and Mc DSP Ac1+AC2.

If you wanna go after hardware, check hedd 192: AD DA plus colour functions.

This week I broke some rules here and ended up with a chain that had Hedd > OCL2 > Ibis Colour EQ engaged > Hedd colour engaged > PSP Neon HR EQ >AC1 > AC2 > Xenon > MD3.

Looks like lots of processing, but I reached the sound I had in my mind.

[tomasrangel]

Originally Posted by Darius van H

What you're observing (or should that read "listening to"?) is great dance production.

The best dance producers are freaks for sound, have spent years developing their craft, and in general don't need or use outside mastering.

So i would say, keep developing your skill, experience and monitoring, learn how your stuff translates in clubs as well as on other systems and in time the warmth will come. Slapping a tube comp over the 2bus wouldn't hurt though.

The meters are good for getting a general understanding of frequency ranges, but at one point you need to turn them off are really start listening!

Good luck!

Yeah, I have to improve my mixing techniques for sure and spend more time on it.
I have some producers friends in London and they are real freaks for sound.

Thanks man

[tomasrangel]

Originally Posted by Online-Mastering

A good idea is to have an acoustic expert do a measurement of your mixing room's frequency response. Most project studios have problems in the low frequencies, because of room modes / cancellations / standing waves. This room spectrum is always added to your mix while mixing, because your brain is always trying to CANCEL OUT these room issues. So what happens? It can be that you eq your mix PERFECT to compensate your room. But -in fact- you have create a non-balanced low end with your room characteristics on the mix - like a finger print.

In the specific area (low end) even subtle eq changes can often have dramatic effects. This makes it VERY VERY hard to control the low end perfectly so that your productions can compare with the best. I will not say it is impossible, just very hard. It takes a lot of experience and always listening and comparing your mixes with reference productions.

So if you have the chance to check your room acoustically, I would spend money on this. A more linear frequency response in the low end gives you a good starting point to make the right decisions / adjust your low ebd spectrum properly.

As already said: Keep the upper bass area 100-250 hz in mind. You can warm up a track here often very nicely, but: Be careful not to overdo anything (that will make it boom-ish and take the 'punch feeling' out of the low end. Filter out UNWANTED low end content, that 'steals' loudness and energy and focus on frequency impact in a range between 50-90 Hz, because this is what most club pa system can reproduce without distortion / rumbling.

The above mentioned things are just a general direction to look (or better HEAR) into. And remember most of the warmth comes from GOOD eqing and compression, and not from the tools themselves. You can create a warm feeling with digital tools as well. If you find the right settings for the right paramters.

Hope that helps a bit!

Arne

I definitely need some organization. Acoutic treatment is the first thing i have to do in my home studio. Im working on music production for more then 10 years and never satisfied with the results.
Probably im not hearing what im doing.

Thanks for those tips!

Cheers

[tomasrangel]

Originally Posted by inlinenl

all IMHO most important is finding the right EQ settings for the track, no-compressor is going to save a badly EQ'd track. If you EQ is right then the excitment and drive can be made with some kind off compression. Sidechain and parallel so you wont compress the drive in a way you don't want it. I haven't used a software comp ( other then the weiss-ds1 ) in 5 years .. I would suggest working with a reference track ... just work on your track until it comes close to what your aiming for ...

For sure! Less is more!

I use to do an express eq and try to fix with compressor and stuff.

You are right.

I need fine EQing !

Cheers!

[tomasrangel]

Originally Posted by Edward_Vinatea

AFAIK, here in New York every slamming dance track whether on vinyl or CD is mastered. I was at Cielo NYC last Tuesday testing a track I mastered for a local DJ-producer and the so called "warmth" went away to most people's perceptions at around 1 am ---- Oh well.

Regards,

lol

[tomasrangel]

Originally Posted by UnderTow

Darius is spot on. The absolute top guys (at least in the genre I listen to most) do everything themselves and all in the box more often than not. Mostly these guys tend to break many of the rules that are taken for granted in this forum. (Don't master your own tracks or don't mix into a limiter etc) but as Darius points out, these people are completely obsessed with sound.

Production. That's what it is all about. If the source of your sounds isn't good or you don't have the right filter set at the right frequency with the right envelope, no amount of mastering or analogue gear will make it sound great. The Arrangement and sequencing is also essential to getting a good sound. Lengthening or shortening the bass notes by a few milliseconds can make all the difference to how a track will sound and I don't just mean the actual groove. Also the actual sound. Or changing the level relationship between the kick and the bass by a few tenth of a dB can do the same.

As Arne points out, your room acoustics are very important. How can you judge how something will sound if you can't hear it properly? How can you judge the right length of the bass notes if the bass note frequency resonates in your room thus making them seem longer than they really are? How can you set the level of the kick if the fundamental of the kick falls into a standing wave dip nearly removing it completely? (Or is phase cancelled by the distance of your monitors to the rear room of your studio).

And of course in the long term you need feedback from the target sound systems. Not just other monitors in other studios but how will it sound on a 50Kw sound system in a club? Or how will it sound on a 100Kw line array on a tropical beach? Things sound different at these levels on these systems. Only experience will tell you how your mixes will translate.

Having said all that, Voxengo VariSaturator on certain elements of the track sounds quite cool when oversampled.

Alistair

You are right. Im becoming more sure that im not listening what im doing.
I need decent speakers setup and acoustics urgently.

Thanks man! Ill try VariSaturator as well!

Cheers

[tomasrangel]

Originally Posted by Edward_Vinatea

I am not sure how experienced the OP is as far as dance music production is concerned. I was initially thinking that he wanted to get some of that analog warmth {as the title suggested} but perhaps I am mistaking. Then it seems that he is referring to the production aspect - maybe he should clarify?. Either way - all the most experienced dance music composer-producers {including myself} master all their tracks. Whether they do it themselves or their mixes are sent out for mastering {by their labels} it gets done IME.

Regards,

Im trying to clarify myself lol. I know what i want bacause i can hear it, but i dont know how to do it.
The thing is. Im making lot mistakes, may be because i can't hear properly what im doing.
I didnt have the oportunity to listen to Valve mastering equipments in a proper enviroment for exemple, Its very very difficult to find it in Brazil. I know two studios in Brazil that have it, but i can not access. :(

Cheers

[tomasrangel]

Originally Posted by Thomas W. Bethe

A couple of ideas

Buy yourself a couple of Western Electric 111C transformers and run your final mix thorough them. The can be configured for 150 or 300 or 600 ohms in and the same on the output. These can be had fairly reasonably on EBAY or from the surplus market. Western Electric 111C and 119C Transformer Information

Get yourself a tube line amplifier with transformers on the input and output. If you can find one get one that uses 6SN7 tubes (triodes with a big glass envelope) it will warm up your sound and give you a more of less "classic" sound. If you can't find one there are lots of people around that could build you one from scratch. SRPP 6SN7 Make sure you use really good input and output transformers (UTC, Lundahl or Peerless) and if possible use DC on the filaments for best results. Lot of info here World Tube Audio Portal - Category Output Transformers PP

If you want to experiment use PSP's Vintage Warmer 2 plug-in to see if that gives you the sound you are after. PSPaudioware.com: audio processor & effect plug-ins VST, DirectX, MAS, AudioUnit, RTAS

Best of luck and let us know how it is going!

Woow! Thats cool man! How do you know i like electric engineering as well? Can be a very cheap solution!
Cool
I will try this.

Cheers

[tomasrangel]

Originally Posted by Online-Mastering

Another add-on to my previous post: If you ask me: How do I get the warmth into my track? The answer would not be: Izotope, PSR, analog tool XYZ, whatsoever, BUT: EQ. Simply make the RIGHT boosts and the RIGHT cuts at the right frequency spots / areas. This is the major secret IMHO.

So this refers to my earlier post: If your room doesn't allow precise adjustments, because of a non-linear frequency response, it will always be a hassle to find these EXACTLY right settings for te tools you already have in your arsenal.

All different tools mentioned already CAN be used to make a track warmer / fuller / punchier / more bright or more light.

EQ is the simple answer. If your rooms 'displays' your productions accurately, then you can trust your ears if a setting of an eq (whether it be digital or analog) makes it sound 'warmer' or 'colder', punchier or more muddy...

So, (I am repeating myself now ): EQ EQ EQ

Arne

I definitely need a treated room!

Cheers man!

[tomasrangel]

Originally Posted by Alécio Costa

If you are into plug-ins, check Crane Song Phoenix, PSP VW and Mc DSP Ac1+AC2.

If you wanna go after hardware, check hedd 192: AD DA plus colour functions.

This week I broke some rules here and ended up with a chain that had Hedd > OCL2 > Ibis Colour EQ engaged > Hedd colour engaged > PSP Neon HR EQ >AC1 > AC2 > Xenon > MD3.

Looks like lots of processing, but I reached the sound I had in my mind.

Hi Alécio!

I wanna make your mastering course! I gonna go to Florianópolis for this!

I ll make you a call soon!

Cheers

[tomasrangel]

Thanks everybody for all the help.
I appreciate that.
Cheers

[Peakly]

Originally Posted by tomasrangel

i can´t get that cool warm sound, specially on low frequencies.

How about just setting it out in the sun in the afternoon for a few hours? Seriously, you will hear an audible difference in the tracks. Just make sure it's kind of a cool, sunny day, to make sure it picks up a little of that cool warm sound.

Sorry. It's been a long Thanksgiving weekend. Cheers all!

[Darius van H]

Originally Posted by tomasrangel

I definitely need some organization. Acoutic treatment is the first thing i have to do in my home studio. Im working on music production for more then 10 years and never satisfied with the results.
Probably im not hearing what im doing.

Thanks for those tips!

Cheers

With dance, it's not mixing, it's production. Creating the right sounds. No amount of mixing can pimp up crappy sounds to compete with the best productions. Go deep into your production and it'll come eventually.