Customer not paying after approving masters

[Pete Lyman]

Hello All,

I need some advice. I have a client that came to me with a 5 song ep for CD and vinyl mastering. He was a referral from a very good customer of mine. We talked a few times over the phone and made an appointment to master. They showed up and we loaded up the mixes. They we’re maxed out… all mixes were about -6 RMS and clipping! I suggested to them we would have much better results with unlimited mixes, so they called the mix engineer. I spoke with him and he was rather upset that I was asking for them…He told me that he always mixes into a L2 and that if he takes off the limiter his mixes will fall apart. He said his customers don’t usually send there stuff to mastering, and that every time he did the mastering engineer screwed it up. So he just limits at the mix stage. So, the clients told me that they would talk to the mixer again and would rather wait if the end result would be a better sounding record.

They called me a week later and told me that we would have to go ahead with the mixes as is. So I did what I could…mostly subtractive eq, and sent them full res refs. Now I don’t usually send anything out until I receive payment, but based on the referral from my other customer I thought it would be fine. Things seemed cool and I had already done what was right and rescheduled hoping to get better mixes. I didn’t hear back for almost 2 weeks. My office manager sent out a invoice, and I sent a email to the 2 main band members to see how they liked the refs. No response…I send another email over a week later…get a response 5 days after that saying the refs were great and to go ahead and cut the lacquers. I cut the lacquers assuming that payment was on it’s way. After a week when I didn’t see a check I emailed and received no response, so I had to scrap the lacquers.

So at about week six into this job (which was sometime last week) we sent another invoice. I received a response from the band saying that they decided not to use my masters because my work did not fit their “artistic vision.” What? That last time I talked to them they were happy with my work and gave me the OK to cut the masters. I sent a very long winded response telling them call me and that they needed to pay the invoice or I would send them to collection. I received I call a few hours ago from the drummer, and he’s now telling me that he never approved the masters, and that he didn’t hear enough of a difference to justify the mastering charge. Keep in mind I warned them about the state of their mixes and they told me to go ahead and do what I could. So it looks like I’ll be sending them to collections. This is a first for me. Has anyone had a situation like this and how have you dealt with it?

[Ben F]

This sort of thing is happening more than I have ever seen it at the moment. I think many people are holding onto their money in fear of a melt down...thus causing a recession as no one is paying bills on time. Not just this industry either!

[DSD_Mastering]

It's never happened to us because I always send only a minute or so of the tracks. If they want the rest, they pay up!


Regards,

[Virtalahde]

I give out a complete master along with an invoice - and a lot of trust.

99,8% of people have always paid.

The rest have paid when I've told them to pay.

[Online-Mastering]

Final Masters against final payment

Can save time (and money as well)... Back to your question: No, we didn't have to chase up anybody yet (see above)

Arne

[Paul Gold]

Originally Posted by Virtalahde

I give out a complete master along with an invoice - and a lot of trust.

Same with me. Every once in a while someone doesn't want to pay. I look at ii as an opportunity. It's not often you are given the chance to be justifiably evil. If they are local it's even better. They play gigs right? Easy to find. Sometimes bad things happen to people.

[Silvertone]

Only happened to me once from a record company no less. After that I changed my policies.

Hate to say it but I get payment in full before I even start the master. Something I learned off Bob Ludwig (except Bob would make you put 5K down and deem back what he didn't use of that money).

No one has ever not used my services because of this policy.

I even make Lions Gate Films pay me up front and they are notorious for "not paying".

One last thing is that nobody would want to f*ck with the collection agency I sent after them. I have a couple uncles that do this for a living...

[macc]

Originally Posted by Paul Gold

Same with me. Every once in a while someone doesn't want to pay. I look at ii as an opportunity. It's not often you are given the chance to be justifiably evil. If they are local it's even better. They play gigs right? Easy to find. Sometimes bad things happen to people.

LMAO

[Thomas W. Bethe]

I have been taken two times in the 14 years that we have been in business. One time from a mastering client that was in such a big hurry that he HAD to take the mastered CD with him to send it off IMMEDIATELY but conveniently left his checkbook at home, said he would put the check in the mail when he got home, and of course we did not get paid. We are still trying to serve this guy with an invoice for the amount due us.

The other involved a restoration package we did for person who decided after we had done the whole project that he did not want to pay for it. We had kept him in the loop and kept telling him that we were running up quite a bill but he kept saying "go ahead" and we did just that. We are still trying to serve him with an invoice for those services but he moved out of state shortly afterward. We still have all of his tapes and CDs but I would rather have the money.

I also had a young person who tried to get his money back for a mastering session we did for him. About two weeks after we had done the session for him he calls me up and says that his grandmother, who had loaned the money to him, did not like the mastering and he wanted to get the money back. I told him that if his grandmother would attend the mastering session I would redo what she did not like about the original mastering. He never called back but I found out later from a mutual friend that he needed the money for the replication of the CD and had already had 1000 CD pressed from our mastered CD and then found him self short of money and decided that he would get it back from us.

We now will not release a master CD without payment (had to learn that one the hard way) and if a job is going on and on and on we require a signature and the person owes us the money up until he authorizes the new work or no new work. We also have a multiple page contract that the client has to sign before we will do any work. If there is a problem with the mastering we will again perform the service for the client but we will not refund his or her money and we state that up front and in the contract.

You want to believe that people are basically honest but .... that is not always the case.

One client bounced a fairly big check that he had written to cover the cost of the mastering. We told him that not only would he owe us the money for the mastering but the bank fees as well. We did not hear from him for quite a while but one day a check came in the mail for the total amount owed and a thank you note from the artist saying that he was sorry the original check bounced but he had just gotten a divorce and his wife had cleaned out their savings and checking account and it took him some time to get his finances back in order. He has since become a very good client.

Best of luck.

One word of advice. Use a collection agency to get your money. If you go the small claims court approach you may wind up paying a lot more than the collection agency will charge you AND even if the court finds in your favor there is no guarantee that you will ever see any of the money. I have a friend that won a judgment against a person that owed him $1200 and the person is paying him off at the rate of 1 penny a week which under Ohio law is legal.

[Virtalahde]

Originally Posted by Paul Gold

It's not often you are given the chance to be justifiably evil.

The baddest boys were about 8 months due. The label manager put my number on ignore list and didn't answer when I hid my number. I let a debt recovery business to handle the invoice, but it didn't work. Then, through one of their (now ex) artists managed to push the label to pay.

The next day the label had paid me, they called.

"Oh hi, we had some small problems. Hey, we need something mastered on the next week, do you have the time?"

Umm.. No?

[24-96 Mastering]

Originally Posted by Pete Lyman

Hello All,

I need some advice. I have a client that came to me with a 5 song ep for CD and vinyl mastering. He was a referral from a very good customer of mine. We talked a few times over the phone and made an appointment to master. They showed up and we loaded up the mixes. They we’re maxed out… all mixes were about -6 RMS and clipping! I suggested to them we would have much better results with unlimited mixes, so they called the mix engineer. I spoke with him and he was rather upset that I was asking for them…He told me that he always mixes into a L2 and that if he takes off the limiter his mixes will fall apart. He said his customers don’t usually send there stuff to mastering, and that every time he did the mastering engineer screwed it up. So he just limits at the mix stage. So, the clients told me that they would talk to the mixer again and would rather wait if the end result would be a better sounding record.

They called me a week later and told me that we would have to go ahead with the mixes as is. So I did what I could…mostly subtractive eq, and sent them full res refs. Now I don’t usually send anything out until I receive payment, but based on the referral from my other customer I thought it would be fine. Things seemed cool and I had already done what was right and rescheduled hoping to get better mixes. I didn’t hear back for almost 2 weeks. My office manager sent out a invoice, and I sent a email to the 2 main band members to see how they liked the refs. No response…I send another email over a week later…get a response 5 days after that saying the refs were great and to go ahead and cut the lacquers. I cut the lacquers assuming that payment was on it’s way. After a week when I didn’t see a check I emailed and received no response, so I had to scrap the lacquers.

So at about week six into this job (which was sometime last week) we sent another invoice. I received a response from the band saying that they decided not to use my masters because my work did not fit their “artistic vision.” What? That last time I talked to them they were happy with my work and gave me the OK to cut the masters. I sent a very long winded response telling them call me and that they needed to pay the invoice or I would send them to collection. I received I call a few hours ago from the drummer, and he’s now telling me that he never approved the masters, and that he didn’t hear enough of a difference to justify the mastering charge. Keep in mind I warned them about the state of their mixes and they told me to go ahead and do what I could. So it looks like I’ll be sending them to collections. This is a first for me. Has anyone had a situation like this and how have you dealt with it?

Troubled projects (especially if there already seems to be conflict between those invloved) have a tendency to bite the last one involved and in this case, that's you. Don't feel bad for it. It happens.

I had that happen a couple of times over the years (both as a recording and as a mastering engineer) and you develop a radar for this type of scenario. The most important thing, I believe, is to not let it get too close to you, especially if you are the type who likes to please and bend over backwards for clients. If a client asks for your input, your work, your help, give it your absolute best and never stop caring. But if they don't want your help, for whatever reasoning, let it go.

If you know they're bending the truth, you know it. There's nothing to be won by trying to convinve them of your account of reality. You know what happened (you even have e-mails that confirm it), just act accordingly and spend the time saved on your loyal, paying customers instead. In your case, imo, that would mean deciding to either treat them as non-paying customers (whatever motives they quote) and, if necessary, give the bill to collection or to bin it, let it go and write it off as experience gained. To me, that decision would depend on how much time I spent on the project, how the customers are acting and whether I have proof to support my claim.

And if you're still tempted to persuade them, to create agreement, it may help to remind yourself that you're arguing with someone who loses money if they validate your account of things. The discussion can not be without bias. Communication often helps, but only if both sides have an equal interest in reaching an agreement.

I hope this works out well for you.

[Pete Lyman]

Originally Posted by 24-96 Mastering

Troubled projects (especially if there already seems to be conflict between those invloved) have a tendency to bite the last one involved and in this case, that's you. Don't feel bad for it. It happens.

I had that happen a couple of times over the years (both as a recording and as a mastering engineer) and you develop a radar for this type of scenario. The most important thing, I believe, is to not let it get too close to you, especially if you are the type who likes to please and bend over backwards for clients. If a client asks for your input, your work, your help, give it your absolute best and never stop caring. But if they don't want your help, for whatever reasoning, let it go.

If you know they're bending the truth, you know it. There's nothing to be won by trying to convinve them of your account of reality. You know what happened (you even have e-mails that confirm it), just act accordingly and spend the time saved on your loyal, paying customers instead. In your case, imo, that would mean deciding to either treat them as non-paying customers (whatever motives they quote) and, if necessary, give the bill to collection or to bin it, let it go and write it off as experience gained. To me, that decision would depend on how much time I spent on the project, how the customers are acting and whether I have proof to support my claim.

And if you're still tempted to persuade them, to create agreement, it may help to remind yourself that you're arguing with someone who loses money if they validate your account of things. The discussion can not be without bias. Communication often helps, but only if both sides have an equal interest in reaching an agreement.

I hope this works out well for you.

Yeah,

I think it's going to collection. My gut told me that there would be problems with this one once I heard the mixes. I'm also finding out that one of the members of this band, who was playing with my customer who referred him at the time, was kicked out of his band for hard drug use. So, I'm not counting on being able to collect from a junkie. This band is local, so I'll be following Paul's advise and showing up at some of their in town shows with an entourage...hopefully they'll enjoy the extra crowd banter!!! I’m usually very strict about getting payment before anything leaves the studio. I guess it just takes one time to get burned…


Thanks.

[24-96 Mastering]

Originally Posted by Pete Lyman

This band is local, so I'll be following Paul's advise and showing up at some of their in town shows with an entourage...hopefully they'll enjoy the extra crowd banter!!!

As much as that sounds fun, I would give it to collection for that. I wouldn't want debt collection (especially the kind where you come with an entourage) to be part of my job description.

[joeaudio]

The only clients that have terms with me are
the record labels that have paid in a timely manner for many years.
Everyone else : Full payment up front, period.

[Atomix]

Applying the concept of mechanic's lien laws, you might make a case that the intellectual ownership has reverted to you for non-payment.
Tell the band you're registering the copyright of their music in your name with ASCAP and Library of Congress, and they can have it back when they pay.

Your situation reminds me of 1st studio I worked at, trying to collect deadbeat accounts in addition to engineering:
Peace and Love musicians all of a sudden turned very nasty when asked to pay their bills.

What I learned

Never let accounting get out of control; enforce a policy of deposits and prompt payments before releasing masters.

Account payables should not be handled by engineer staff; they develop a relationship with the client which makes dealing with money awkward.

With delinquent clients, using moral suasion may work; Tell them they have an obligation, and you'll take payments.
Try getting the mutual friend who sent them to you to mediate.

Small claims judgements are easy to get; most times, the client can't even be bothered to contest. I did it all the time.
Collecting on judgements is another matter entirely: I wouldn't waste time with small claims, hire an agency.

Don't try and play the heavy; blowback can be more unpleasant than original problem, unless you are really prepared to escalate things, and be the baddest dog in town, which becomes a 24-7 job.

[Paul Gold]

I wasn't suggesting you try to get the money. That would be a lot of work. Playing with junkies isn't my idea of fun. I was suggesting you come up with something both equitable and evil. Bands show up to gigs with lots of stuff.

[Ben F]

I've just been noticing larger record labels from Australia and Europe are taking a lot longer than normal to pay. The Indie ones are fine, same with regular clients. I don't send out masters until payment, but the album that has been done is not up for release until next year.

Fortunately today they paid...

[25ghosts]

hi,

1 - if you have the email correspondence where they state that you can go ahead and do the lacquers - then you are home free cuz:

A) That is proof of - placement of order

B) They would NEVER place the order if if they did not like the mastering


2) According to the law - when someone enters your mastering studio and ask you to do a job the only reason for them not having to pay you, is if they can prove that what you have delivered is SUB STANDARD. If your result is not as great as i.e. something Bernie Grundman did on the last world hit then that is still not enough to void payment. What you agree to (even if you only have a "verbal" contract) is to deliver a "standard" - quality. Whether your result is "standard" is up to a third pty. "person" assigned by the court - who will listen to the result and "judge" whether what you made was indeed up to current standards.


There are plenty of knuckleheads out there - thinking they dont need to pay after having exploited honest folk's time. They will try and skip payment every time until either someone show up with a B-Ball bat and knock them out or they get hauled into court kicking and screaming.

If I were you - I would simply gather the proof that I have and have my lawyer look at it. If he says go - well then you hit them MF'ers with all you got.

Best of Luck - although the way I see it from reading your first post - you dont need it since you have the email proof - where they tell you to go ahead and cut the lacquers which they would not do if they wouldn't approve of the mastering result.

[djwaudio]

Collecting money is the biggest downer for me. Every time I've done some small favor for someone, by letting masters or a song out the door; it becomes a Cecil B. Demille production to get payment. I have yet to be sent a fruit basket for the good will of letting someone "pay later."

Our policy is: nothing leaves the studio until payment is made in full.

[Reptil]

Originally Posted by Paul Gold

Same with me. Every once in a while someone doesn't want to pay. I look at ii as an opportunity. It's not often you are given the chance to be justifiably evil. If they are local it's even better. They play gigs right? Easy to find. Sometimes bad things happen to people.

[Pete Lyman]

Originally Posted by Paul Gold

I wasn't suggesting you try to get the money. That would be a lot of work. Playing with junkies isn't my idea of fun. I was suggesting you come up with something both equitable and evil. Bands show up to gigs with lots of stuff.

I was just suggesting aggravating them with a little (un)constructive criticism during their performance...in the form of a pack of my inebriated friends.

Update! The band has just paid in full, as well as sending a written apology. So, now I need to cut the cd master as well as the lacquers...

Thanks for everyone’s input! From now on I won’t let any material out of here without receiving full payment.

[24-96 Mastering]

Originally Posted by Ben F

I've just been noticing larger record labels from Australia and Europe are taking a lot longer than normal to pay.

Especially when payments are going through india :p ... Well, at least you know you'll get the payment eventually.

On the artist and indie side, I have collected a couple of unpaid bills in the last few months and I'm considering signing up to a collection agency where I pay a yearly fee - and in turn pretty much nothing for actual collection cases. That would make it an easier decision to just give unpaid bills to collection (after a reasonable, clearly defined amount of time) without the usual hesitation and the countless reminder emails and "I'll make the payment next week" replies. As it is now, I have to weigh the cost of collection against the likelihood of getting the payment directly for each individual case and that's quite exhausting when there's a couple of them.

[ed littman]

Originally Posted by Pete Lyman

Update! The band has just paid in full, as well as sending a written apology. So, now I need to cut the cd master as well as the lacquers...

Whats the story there? I'm glad it worked for you!
Ed

[bcgood]

Originally Posted by Reptil

LOL

"I'm afraid the deflector shield will be quite operational when your friends arrive."

[Storyville]

Originally Posted by Pete Lyman

Yeah,

I think it's going to collection. My gut told me that there would be problems with this one once I heard the mixes. I'm also finding out that one of the members of this band, who was playing with my customer who referred him at the time, was kicked out of his band for hard drug use. So, I'm not counting on being able to collect from a junkie. This band is local, so I'll be following Paul's advise and showing up at some of their in town shows with an entourage...hopefully they'll enjoy the extra crowd banter!!! I’m usually very strict about getting payment before anything leaves the studio. I guess it just takes one time to get burned…


Thanks.

Best thing you can do is confront them in person. However, at the end of the day there's only so much you can do. Once someone has possession of something it's very hard to charge them for what they already have. Most MEs take a down payment and don't release the finals until full payment is met. But, circulate the name of the band so we know not take their work.

[shmasterer]

Hey Pete, its possible the band read your post here, including the good ideas to get even.

My short story. A Very Big Band did some work with me nearly a year ago and ignored paying for six months. I was about to post their name on every forum I could find and made one final appeal to them with the word "Collection" in the subject of the email.
Full payment arrived within a couple days and I sent them a short note thanking them.

Cool heads prevailed here, do you think they'd have paid up if I'd made public our little problem?

s

[Lagerfeldt]

Never ever go public (i.e. make the offender's name public) in these cases.

It always falls back on you.

[Edward_Vinatea]

I think to assume that the band read these posts and changed their minds about no paying is a long long shot.
My experience tells me that either they heard a third opinion and followed that advise, or the drummer was convinced by the other members that paying is the right course of action or they went to another ME who made them a demo and it sounded worse than Lyman's masters, or they simply realized that they DO want to have a record release party!
Granted - giving the masters without payment is a leap of faith . But we are conducting business not religious ceremonies and as much as I would love to hand all orders out on credit - I prefer to give free mastering demonstrations both online and/or by studio appointment.

I think a month ago I reported that our online service took a hit with a credit card charge-back even though the 'client' gave me very high marks for the work. Well - the escrow company 'PayPal' did what they could to convince the cardholder's bank that our record is spotless and chances are that this cardholder committed fraud against our company (or simply that he decided he needed the money back). The cardholder's position is that it was an 'unauthorized charge' and thus his card was stolen. This individual ordered twice (according to PP with anothet credit card) so I am expecting yet another charge-back. If this happens PayPal will now have sufficient evidence to believe that the cardholder is who made all these orders in the first place. Stay tuned.

Best regards,

[joeaudio]

Maybe he got into a program and he's working the 9th step.

[Rappinghood]

Originally Posted by 24-96 Mastering

Especially when payments are going through india :p ... Well, at least you know you'll get the payment eventually.

Yeah...a few people I've spoken to at majors recently hate the fact that their accounts are now outsourced to either India (Universal) or Czech Republic (EMI) and so on, because it just gives them even more grief and also adds a few more steps in the chain before I get paid.

I rarely get payment within 30 days from majors no matter how much I put the pressure on. And ironically some of my most regular indie clients are the worst payers - sending me great jobs, dealing with nice people on the jobs but their accounts departments are run by (un)trained monkeys.

It's great for cashflow to do as many jobs as possible with payment up front, but it's increasingly hard to achieve this. And in terms of payment after the client has received the master - I try and avoid this where possible, without being nasty, especially with indies or individuals due to far too many bad experiences where as a gesture of goodwill I give them the master, assuming that all people are nice and honest and will pay. I'm not the kind to send a guy with a baseball bat round, so occasionally things have to be written off. Have also had experiences similar to a previous poster where they eventually pay (or don't) and still ask for more work. The cheek!!