How do you use a spectrum analyser

[MASSIVE Master]

Originally Posted by Edward_Vinatea

Believe me I don't think you get the horrible mixes I do.

I wouldn't put any money on that...

Originally Posted by flatfinger

Anyone who has spent even a marginal amount of time on this board has gotten the message Massive ; ...............We all know by now that in your room , with your hear better than god ears , you don't need any stinking RTA's, and you never , ever will!!

Maybe the mods can just give you a sticky post , where you could state your case for the abolition of the RTA . You pop in on every thread about them and lobby against them and there use under almost any circumstances,( as is your right ! ) .

Does'nt it seem like a sticky right on the first page would save your digits and wrist
"MASSIVE " amounts of wear and tear !!!!!!!!!!!

??? I think you'll notice that the majority of us here don't use the RTA with any regularity. I'm no different. I don't want to abolish anything - I think you're totally misreading my (and I know I'm joined by so many others) point...

So here's my point -- No matter what Ed says, no matter what you say, no matter what anyone says, a bad sounding mix can *look* fine on a RTA.

Here's another -- A mix that doesn't perfectly follow 1/f on a RTA can sound perfectly fine.

Here are several more just off the top of my head:

A mix that reads "-10dBRMS" on a meter might not necessarily sound as loud as another mix that reads -11 or even -12dBRMS on the same meter.

A mix that *looks* like fresh-cut grass might be hopelessly distorted and clipped at several stages.

A mix that *looks* hopelessly clipped and 'flat-topped' like a roller rink might sound just fine.

A mix that's very loud might not hit full-scale on a meter.

Another mix that hits full scale on a meter with regularity might not be very loud.



I'm not saying not to use meters. I'm saying to co-exist with them. Use them - Learn to read them. Learn to utilize them to make sure your system is doing what it's supposed to and designed to do.

And then learn to not trust them over your ears.

[Edward_Vinatea]

But Massive, the same thing happens when you 'hear' a bad mix that is perfectly balanced and sounds with just the right amount of bass, mids and hi frequencies in all systems! No matter how well balanced it is - still a bad mix. That is exactly what you'll be looking at on your RTA. Are you aware that you can precisely set the sub sonic bass density of a mix with a RTA? Let me know if you are not. As far as the rest you said is IMO out of context with what it is really used for. And BTW, you can see with a RTA why the mix that is -10dBRMS not louder than the one that is -12dBRMS - I can - all I have to do is compare bands.

Regards Massive,

[MASSIVE Master]

Are you aware that you can precisely set the sub sonic bass density of a mix with a RTA? Let me know if you are not.

That's about it for me - Adding you to my "Ignore" list (now it's you and Joerod, assuming you *might* not be the same person).

[Edward_Vinatea]

Originally Posted by flatfinger

Anyone who has spent even a marginal amount of time on this board has gotten the message Massive ; ...............We all know by now that in your room , with your hear better than god ears , you don't need any stinking RTA's, and you never , ever will!!

+1

Really it shouldn't be a battle between those who use it and those who don't. The thread clearly says: "how-do-you-use-spectrum-analyser" not 'Is it any good?' And what if someone made a thread called : how do you use M/S compression? If some posts: it's not needed, fix in the mix! Or who cares?, use a stereo imager! Wouldn't that be regarded OT??

The thread asks for advise as to how it works not whether your opinion is that it doesn't or that it has little utility to you. It's a shame that 70+ replies only helped explain so little because some users feel it shouldn't be discussed so thoroughly. It's just a tool Ok? It's not going to replace you and you still need your ears.

Regards,

[Joemamma]

Originally Posted by MASSIVE Master

I'm not saying not to use meters. I'm saying to co-exist with them. Use them - Learn to read them. Learn to utilize them to make sure your system is doing what it's supposed to and designed to do.

[macc]

I'll start using a RTA to tell me what something sounds like around the time I start licking paint to find out what color it is.

Actual LOLs here

Request permission to appropriate that one....

[MASSIVE Master]

Originally Posted by macc

Actual LOLs here

Request permission to appropriate that one....

Permission granted, by all means.

And I don't understand why so few seem to see it - I'm not ranting "against RTA's" -- I'm against using them as a crutch or as a default.

If you run into some issue that you can't quite put your finger on, by all means - Open up the RTA and see if you can isolate it visually. Analyze it, fit it and move on.

But the next time you run into that same issue, you shouldn't need the RTA to fix it. Overall, I think what I'm getting at is still in my sig (although I'll check that as soon as I submit this message).

[EDIT - Still there.]

Almost starting to seem like people are attacking you ... just to attack. After awhile the content and point of the thread gets lost, unfortunately for those of use who are trying to follow and learn. Never knew RTA was such a emotional personal subject.

We're not necessarily attacking the messenger...

We didn't necessarily gang up on Ed's "associate" joerod either -- We ganged up on his "questionable" (for lack of a better term) posts.

[Edward_Vinatea]

Originally Posted by MASSIVE Master

I'm against using them as a crutch or as a default.

And you are entitled to your opinion - but not appropriate or relevant to this thread.

If you run into some issue that you can't quite put your finger on, by all means - Open up the RTA and see if you can isolate it visually. Analyze it, fit it and move on.

But the next time you run into that same issue, you shouldn't need the RTA to fix it.

There are many instances where a mix frequency issue that sounded problematic for a mix is totally different in another. An obvious analogy is sibilance - where if the problem was in one mix at say, 6k - it's 8k in another.

Regards,

[Joemamma]

Get on with it! LOL

[Edward_Vinatea]

Originally Posted by Joemamma

Get on with it! LOL

In most commercial music - RTA with a scope can help set, locate and guide you to:

Re-shape bass area
Set a sub sonic roll off filter.
Bass compression and equalization to enhance bottom end.
Filter boost/cut to increase or decrease kick's punch
Narrow bell eq to increase/decrease correct snare presence
Locate freq bandwidth to reduce kick's density with mb compressor
Remove unwanted rumble or hum
Remove unwanted thump and AC ground noise
Reduce baseline level
Help select low-mid frequencies to increase presence of guitars, keyboards, etc.
Increase/decrease vocal presence
Correct vocal imbalances
Anchor lead vocal "within the music".
Fill up frequency gaps
Smooth harshness in the mids
Increase the brightness and the crack of a snare
Reduce sibilance problems
Reduce levels on hats, cymbals, tambourines.
Roll off unnecessary density on the top end
Set precisely RMS total power
Check for phase issues
Balance the stereo image
Remove/reduce unwanted clicks and pops with notch filters {without software}
Reduce excessive high transients that limit your loudness
Depending on the mix - make it as loud or if not louder than 'Death Magnetic'
Troubleshoot gear
Check your room's acoustics.
Calibration routines.
Test broadband signals {i.e.1/f}

I can go on and on - there are others uses I keep to myself because knowing the kind of people in this board - it might be perceived as promoting my own 'personal research'.

That said, I'd like to add that because all of this is considered 'art' and some of the differences are subliminal - the importance of being accurate is really up to each individual and only those who care to present a product as great as it can sound will appreciate having spent countless hours analyzing other great engineers' work.

Regards,

[flatfinger]

Originally Posted by Edward_Vinatea

In most commercial music - RTA with a scope can help set, locate and guide you to:

Re-shape bass area
Set a sub sonic roll off
Bass compression and equalization to enhance bottom end.
Filter boost/cut to increase or decrease kick's punch
Narrow bell eq to increase/decrease correct snare presence
Locate freq bandwidth to reduce kick's density with mb compressor
Remove unwanted rumble or hum
Remove unwanted thump and AC ground noise
Reduce baseline level
Help select low-mid frequencies to increase presence of guitars, keyboards, etc.
Increase/decrease vocal presence
Smooth harshness in the mids
Increase the brightness and the crack of a snare
Reduce sibilance problems
Reduce levels on hats, cymbals, tambourines.
Roll off unnecessary density on the top end
Set precisely RMS total power
Check for phase issues
Balance the stereo image
Remove/reduce unwanted clicks and pops {without software}
Depending on the mix - make it loud or if not louder than 'Death Magnetic'.
Troubleshoot gear
Check your room's acoustics.
Calibration routines.
Test broadband signals {i.e.1/f}

I can go on and on - there are others uses I keep to myself because knowing the kind of people in this board - it might be perceived as promoting my own 'personal research'. And while some MEs believe they can do most or even all of this by just listening - I am pretty sure their adjustments lack in accuracy.

That said, I'd like to add that because all of this is considered 'art' and some of the differences are subliminal - the importance of being accurate is really up to each individual and only those who care to present a product as great as it can sound - will appreciate having spent countless hours analyzing other great engineers' work.

Regards,

Edward ,
There is a time to realize that you can't win . All opinions expressed here are not neccesarily right or wrong , there just opinions and the reader would do well to just spend the time mixing or listening to decide what workflow and tools to settle on !
A great mix can be warm , fat, bright or crisp, and the ears are the final arbitor in this case .

Massive ,
I don't know where you find the time , but I always enjoy your definative posting style ; one never wonders where your coming from ! and , I agree , I have looked at mixes on the RTA that should be overly bright and hurt my ears , but don't ( how did they do that ??)
Can't become dependant on any tools but those on the side of your cabeza!!


Cheers ( ya knuckleheads !!)

[Edward_Vinatea]

I hear what you are saying Flatfinger - but I felt that at the very least I had to list some of the benefits of knowing the use of RTAs. I didn't want this thread to be closed without some actual examples of what purpose it serves. This is a subject I have expertise on so why shouldn't I? It's also important to note that the RTA has to be pro-level and it's best to stick with just one or two max. for all analysis.

Anyway - nobody really tried to add their experiences about how they use theirs in a specific manner so I did it. Keep in mind that I am not doing nothing but what the title of this thread suggests. To me it is not about 'winning' any contest - it's about setting the record of its use straight. I don't care at this point if I will be perceived by some as 'defensive'.

BTW, I don't know what kind of RTA you use but on mine - if something is bright it will display 8k to 20k as being dense with frequency levels between -12dB and -10 dB high. Even as low as -15dB - if your frequency bandwidth is between 8-20K - it's still kind of a bright mix relative to overall peak levels at -0.01dBfs. I will admit - however -that sometimes the high harmonics content overlaying from other instrument parts - increase the perception of the mix brightness. This is when you need to understand how instruments are arranged and how their energy is laid out on the tracks over time.

I am done with this now {hopefully}.

EDIT: Added the relative overall levels in bold which I had forgotten.