overlength CD masters: is 79'52" too long?

[tonmeister]

I have a client who wants to put 79'52" on a CD.
My advice was that 74'28" is the max safe red book spec CD length, but while it should work fine on most players, will have compatibility problems with some players older than ten years.
Any opinions?
Really he should trim the length back, no one has the attention span for this sort of thing these days. Ideal album length = 45mins?thumbsup

[MASSIVE Master]

Let him know that the plant will likely require a signed release that "if they don't play, tough beans to you." Most plants will require it if it's over 74 minutes.

[mikeroephonics]

I've been wondering for some time now if there's some trick to overburning past the Red Book specs. I haven't done any projects that exceed 74 minutes, so I haven't researched this. Is there a trick to it, or do you guys just overburn and have the client sign a "Good luck, but tough sh!t if it doesn't play." agreement?

All the commercials discs I have that exceed 74 minutes play fine on my CD players, but that might be related only to the players capabilities. This is a good topic.

-Mike

[Ruairi]

One of the main plants I work with will guarantee product up to 78 mins. They will press cds up to 80 mins if the client signs a waiver, I have done this several times without incident.

Cheers,
Ruairi

[Trakworx]

I've mastered hundreds of CDs over 74 minutes long. So many Rap artists insist on putting 20 or more songs on 1 disc. At the client's insistence I even sent one to replication at 79:58 once. I always warn them about it, but honestly I've never had anybody report a problem to me.

[prolearts]

It is too long whether or not it'll fit on a CD!tutt

Jason Ward
Chicago Mastering Service

[Trakworx]

Originally Posted by prolearts

It is too long whether or not it'll fit on a CD!tutt

Jason Ward
Chicago Mastering Service

I agree 100%!

It's become quantity over quality, but hey - if that's what the client insists on...

[Cellotron]

Maximum allowable length varies with each plant - but these days generally you can get up to 79:59 (and usually not a frame longer) at the vast majority of plants. The issue is that to get to these longer than around 74:36 lengths of original Red Book spec the track pitch for the glass master must be adjusted tighter (something that can be pretty much automatically set with current glass mastering softwares). A few older players, or rarely cheaper car or portable systems, might have problems playing over-length discs or not be able to play the last track -but for the most part compatibility is not as much of an issue as it used to be.

Over-length discs are generally a little more difficult to manufacture well as good QC needs to be taken during glass mastering to make sure there are no issues with channel cross talk or poor pit geometry - and sometimes it can be difficult to maintain good metallizing on the very outer edges of the discs as well. Many plants will require the client to sign a waiver releasing them from warranting over-length discs against defects - with their over-length point where they require this waiver varying anywhere from 74 to 78 minutes - but my experience has been that most plants are capable of producing good discs to the 78 minute mark. Beyond that incidence of problems tend to increase. To me the absolute best thing to do is to consult directly with the plant to make sure they are ok with the specific length - and if not find a plant with a good reputation who is.

Best regards,
Steve Berson

[Thomas W. Bethe]

Originally Posted by Cellotron

Maximum allowable length varies with each plant - but these days generally you can get up to 79:59 (and usually not a frame longer) at the vast majority of plants. The issue is that to get to these longer than around 74:36 lengths of original Red Book spec the track pitch for the glass master must be adjusted tighter (something that can be pretty much automatically set with current glass mastering softwares). A few older players, or rarely cheaper car or portable systems, might have problems playing over-length discs or not be able to play the last track -but for the most part compatibility is not as much of an issue as it used to be.

Over-length discs are generally a little more difficult to manufacture well as good QC needs to be taken during glass mastering to make sure there are no issues with channel cross talk or poor pit geometry - and sometimes it can be difficult to maintain good metallizing on the very outer edges of the discs as well. Many plants will require the client to sign a waiver releasing them from warranting over-length discs against defects - with their over-length point where they require this waiver varying anywhere from 74 to 78 minutes - but my experience has been that most plants are capable of producing good discs to the 78 minute mark. Beyond that incidence of problems tend to increase. To me the absolute best thing to do is to consult directly with the plant to make sure they are ok with the specific length - and if not find a plant with a good reputation who is.

Best regards,
Steve Berson

We had a client recently that had 120 minutes of material she wanted to put onto one CD and was shocked that there was not a way to do this. I also had a client that had 83 minutes of material that he wanted on the CD and was pushing hard to find a way to do it. We finally had to cut one complete song and got it down to 78 minutes. At first he wanted to go back and take out the 2 second time between each of the tracks and edit the songs to take out the repeats and the choruses and when we did that we could only save about 2.3 minutes so we had to go to plan 2. He was NOT a happy camper. When I told him that in the old days we would have been limited to 74 minutes or less he said "how barbaric".

[mikeroephonics]

I can't think of any album I have that comes in over 74 minutes or so really needs that much music. In my opinion, any album that long has at least one or two filler tracks that could be cut.

LOL @ the "How barbaric" comment. Poor guy, I hope he made it through that extremely traumatic experience...

-Mike

[narcoman]

Originally Posted by mikeroephonics

I can't think of any album I have that comes in over 74 minutes or so really needs that much music. In my opinion, any album that long has at least one or two filler tracks that could be cut.

LOL @ the "How barbaric" comment. Poor guy, I hope he made it through that extremely traumatic experience...

-Mike

how barbaric guy = idiot. Pompous one too....

[Andy Krehm]

We deal with Cinram for a lot of our replication. They are one of the largest replicators in the world and everytime I have checked with the Toronto glass mastering department re length of allowable program on CD, they have consistantly said no more than 78 1/2 minutes. That has not changed for a few years so I don't ask anymore!

Also, to the best of my knowledge, none of our clients have had to sign a waiver to have that length of CD replicated.

[Cellotron]

Originally Posted by Andy Krehm

We deal with Cinram for a lot of our replication. They are one of the largest replicators in the world and everytime I have checked with the Toronto glass mastering department re length of allowable program on CD, they have consistantly said no more than 78 1/2 minutes. That has not changed for a few years so I don't ask anymore!

Also, to the best of my knowledge, none of our clients have had to sign a waiver to have that length of CD replicated.

Yeah - as mentioned this will vary from plant to plant - the now closed plant I used to work at required waivers as soon as the disc was over 74:36 - and our maximum length was 78:59 - others don't require a waiver at all and have different allowable maximum lengths.

I have an 81 minute disc made in the early 90's of a Rykodisk issued compilation of Mission of Burma - it was mastered from 1630 instead of CD-R.

Best regards,
Steve Berson

[tonmeister]

Originally Posted by Thomas W. Bethe

120 minutes onto one CD

2 CD set surely? 60mins per disc

[Thomas W. Bethe]

Originally Posted by tonmeister

2 CD set surely? 60mins per disc

It was a bunch of readings and she wanted it all on one disk. We finally did it as MP3s and put a note on the CD saying that it would play in most computers and some CD and DVD players. She was not pleased but did not want to spend the bucks to do it right with two CDs.

[(mr) next]

Originally Posted by jdub

I agree 100%!

It's become quantity over quality, but hey - if that's what the client insists on...

holy $hit you're the guy who taught me how to master...at CRI!

i'm gonna hit you up on your myspace so you can see who i am

i'll give you a hint...

dave gibson, dan, you...and me.

*we ran that place for a while*

[Jaques Beraques]

I like the "how barbaric guy"!