learning software for mastering, seeking advice (waves diamond bundle)

[(mr) next]

i'm just experimenting with the waves diamond bundle, as well as learning mastering in general, so this question may address more issues than i think:

is it overkill to use the L1 in conjunction with the LinMB (multi band)?

if anyone has any tips for me that would be great.

the files are at 16/44

i have KRK v6 monitors with the 10" sub.

i'm using sonar 3, even though i have the latest versions i still like the old one.

(old school i know, but i'm one of those stubborn types who likes to work in the familiar zone. currently learning ableton live, hoping to drop sonar entirely. i have protools 6.9 but i'm not into pro tools for several reasons)

so i'm definitely using sonar 3 and this diamond bundle to master my project and i would love any advice, especially on combining a LinMultiBand with the L1...because i'm a bit of a noob and unfamiliar with the LinMB.

(and which is better the L1, the L1+ or the L2?)

thanx in advance.

next

[Ben F]

If you are unsure what to do, best not to master it yourself. There is so much to know it's impossible to learn just reading a forum.

I'd take the 'less is more' approach if you are happy with the mixes. Steer clear of a multiband, just use a decent EQ/broadband compressor (such as the Vintage Warmer) and L2 with no more than a couple of dB gain reduction.

Do constant LEVEL MATCHED A/B testing. Listen in every environment possible, and reference to music you like the sound of.

[(mr) next]

thanx

of course, i totally agree i can't learn the finite art of mastering from a forum...even after studying it at 2 different schools and practicing for years, i still have a lot to learn. i'm just on damage control here, making sure i can avoid some critical mistakes. the album is going out independently, no distribution (yet) and so it's mainly a download for people. but i still want to try...

[DominicWyeth]

Check out Bob Katz mastering Audio book. That might give you a good place to start.

Audio Mastering, Mixing & Replication Services

[(mr) next]

thanx for your efforts, but i was in need of a little more info that was a little more relevant to my question, and this is a time senstive issue, so i found the answer myself.

and now i'm posting it in case anyone ever searches out info on using the LinMB in conjunction with the L2, because that link has a great break down on what to do.

check out this link

Mastering Tutorial

thanx anyway.

[24-96 Mastering]

Originally Posted by (mr) next

i'm just experimenting with the waves diamond bundle, as well as learning mastering in general, so this question may address more issues than i think:

is it overkill to use the L1 in conjunction with the LinMB (multi band)?

It's only overkill if you overkill the material to be mastered. The L1 and LinMB are completely different tools, doing different things. Think of the L1 as a loudness-generator and the LinMB as an automatic EQ balancer (at the cost of dynamic integrity).

There's no reason to not use them in succession. Because if you use any one of them, there'll better be a reason for it (I.e. don't slap processors on, just because you think - or someone tells you - it's the "proper" thing to do.)

Multiband processors don't routinely get used in professional mastering, despite what you've been led to believe. For home-mastering, it's a quick and easy solution; it balances your spectrum a bit and can make it easier, to get loudness. It comes at a price however. The audio may get nervous, lose its impact, its exitement, it's punch, its integrity. That said, there are cases when mutliband compression helps, but don't just slap it on the mix, if you use it, use it consciously. And DO NOT - like that (imo) very questionable mastering tutorial suggests, use a preset and gather threshold settings by what peaks are displayed. Also, if you find that using the multiband compressor always makes your mixes sound better, more "professional", that is a good indication that your mixes could use some work.

When you clamp down the threshold, listen to what it does. Listen to how the compression in a band sounds and listen to the balance changing. Listen to the nervousness introduced. Listen to the polishing effect gentle multiband compression can have on a rough mix. The key is that you hear what you are doing and learn to set your units according to that.

(and which is better the L1, the L1+ or the L2?)

The L2 has the automatic release control. If you are not setting the release on a limiter very consciously, I'd suggest to use the L2 with ARC on.

[Thomas W. Bethe]

Originally Posted by (mr) next

thanx for your efforts, but i was in need of a little more info that was a little more relevant to my question, and this is a time senstive issue, so i found the answer myself.

and now i'm posting it in case anyone ever searches out info on using the LinMB in conjunction with the L2, because that link has a great break down on what to do.

check out this link

Mastering Tutorial

thanx anyway.

That is one company's take on mastering and if you are happy with the results you get from doing it their way then use it. Mastering procedures are NOT something that is easily summed up in a one or two page document. Every song is different. Everyone approaches mastering in a slightly different way. Everyone doing mastering is different and has different equipment/software. There are no hard and fast rules or magic EQ or compression settings that "everyone" uses. Mastering is mostly about listening with really good monitoring equipment in a really well designed room with experienced ears and then doing what the music tells you to do.

Best of luck!

ps. HarBal wants to sell you their software so that is why it plays so prominently in their "explanation" of how to do mastering.

[24-96 Mastering]

Originally Posted by (mr) next

thanx for your efforts, but i was in need of a little more info that was a little more relevant to my question, and this is a time senstive issue, so i found the answer myself.

and now i'm posting it in case anyone ever searches out info on using the LinMB in conjunction with the L2, because that link has a great break down on what to do.

check out this link

Mastering Tutorial

thanx anyway.

Oh that Har-Bal company... Imo it's not a tutorial because it doesn't really teach/tutor any analytics or techniques. I'd call it a specific list of instructions. It tells you, for example, to "fill the valleys" in the frequency response curve. It's as much a tutorial as reading "use scissors to cut hair until each hair is the around the same length" tells you how to produce a good looking hair style. And the parts on using a multiband limiter aren't much better, imo.

If that's enough for you and works on your tracks to your satisfaction, that's fine (although it tells you that your mixes likely aren't that great...), but you should know that following that list isn't really mastering at all. It's a quick, rough, approximated fix. It's more or less randomly plastering 100 band aids all over your body, hoping to hit any bruised spots. And it may still completely miss them, provided there were any to begin with.

Mastering should mean that you improve the subjective quality of a song based on what is, subjectively, wrong with it. I.e. what is done depends on what needs doing only. That definition, unfortunately, does not provide a specific list of instructions, but will always provide better results.

As I said, if what you're looking for is a quick fix to make your demo louder, then it's fine to follow such a list. Nothing wrong with that. But it should be said that the linked "tutorial" is very limited and designed to cater to the lowest common denominator. And, in my opinion, also to sell a product. And the simpler the instructions, the more potential buyers there are.

Some specific things in the tutorial that I would advise stronlgly to not do:

- Do not routinely smoothe out "valleys" and peaks with EQ in a spectrum plot just to fill them. Chances are they're there for good reasons. Only make EQ changes if it clearly improves the sound. And when doing this, always compare before and after (for each EQ cut/boost) with matched levels. Use a frequency/time analyzer only to give you pointers to look into, not to provide instructions. It just doesn't work.
- Don't routinely set a low order (shallow) high pass filter between 40 and 60 Hz.
- Don't set your multiband limiter thresholds by peak measurements for each band's content.
- Do not use a multiband limiter to take 12 dB (as seen in example image) off a specific band. Ever. If it takes 12 dB of reduction in a frequency range to make a good sounding master, go back and produce a better mix. A MUCH better mix.
-the instruction to use the rotation control of the Waves S1 if there is any difference in the RMS level between left and right channels is scary. Just don't.

If you want to learn, there are, in my opinion, better beginners' tutorials out there. (I really wish I could remember where... anyone have any links?)

[hummer]

Why does everyone assume that mastering = compression?

If you want to learn, get an apprenticeship.

[Online-Mastering]

This 'manual' is a bit funny. Do not take it too seriously... It's more like saying: 'Good sports cars are always red'. Mastering doesn't work this way. Especially not by giving a straight advice: Now add multiband compression. As already said: Multiband CAN shred the sound, make it inhomogeneous and diverted, so multiband tools should be applied only when necessary and even then carefully. But this manual really implies: A good mastering needs multiband adjustments. Point. That's -in fact- not true.

If you aim for serious tips, google audio mastering tips or tricks and you will find many more helpful ressources that give you basic understanding of how and why mastering should be done...

Arne

[(mr) next]

thanx, yeah i experiment with the thresholds, attacks and release a lot.

i definitely don't just follow the "guidelines" of that har bal thing,

but it's a good introduction to the LinMB and how it works, which helped me a lot,

and throughout my mastering of this album last night and today, i have found that it's good to use the LinMB on some songs, but not on others. i've also been using it and disabling bypassing a few of the bands, because it can sometimes ruin the dynamics of a snare drum, while really helping the dynamics of the low (and higher end).

it's pretty scary how dramatically it changes a mix, but sometimes it helps.

good times with my first multi-band experience that's for sure.

[kjg]

Originally Posted by (mr) next

good times with my first multi-band experience that's for sure.

every one has a little crush when first trying out a multiband. but the more you'll use it, the more you'll end up bypassing it.

[24-96 Mastering]

Originally Posted by (mr) next

thanx, yeah i experiment with the thresholds, attacks and release a lot.

i definitely don't just follow the "guidelines" of that har bal thing,

but it's a good introduction to the LinMB and how it works, which helped me a lot,

and throughout my mastering of this album last night and today, i have found that it's good to use the LinMB on some songs, but not on others. i've also been using it and disabling bypassing a few of the bands, because it can sometimes ruin the dynamics of a snare drum, while really helping the dynamics of the low (and higher end).

it's pretty scary how dramatically it changes a mix, but sometimes it helps.

Sounds like you're on the right track, trying things out, learning and having fun while doing so. Great to hear and I see my long posts before weren't needed at all.

[Online-Mastering]

i've also been using it and disabling bypassing a few of the bands...

That's the right direction. The first thing using multiband tools should be asking yourself: WHY do I need it for that special track? What is my sonic intention? When you got this clear you can check: Is there any other processing which helps to achieve the same result? If the answer is 'NO' then proceed... As you found out, it's good to turn off bands that are not used. Better than saying: OK, I added multiband-> Let's see what I can do with every single band. That won't help. It's better to have an idea what parts of the sonic spectrum you want to control, and then: Trust your ears

Arne

[(mr) next]

haha every post helps 24-26, because i'm so deep into this album i can't hear it anymore, and yeah i may know to experiment and not buy into a sales pitch style manual, but i still need a little confirmation from others who have more experience, which is what i love about this forum...

thanx everyone, all the time, for everything.

peace...

[JCM]

Originally Posted by (mr) next

but it's a good introduction to the LinMB and how it works

I would have thought the Waves manual would had been a better source for that information.

[(mr) next]

Originally Posted by JCM

I would have thought the Waves manual would had been a better source for that information.

not when you're asking about using it in conjunction with the L1, or L2, and trying to get insight from actual people who have actual experience.

that's far better than a manual.

knowledge comes from books.

wisdom comes from experience.

[bachconnelly]

I completely disagree.. The Waves manual is very helpful and the tutorial is completely unrelated to way mastering happens in the real world. I thought this forum was past mixing and mastering with their eyes....

D-

[(mr) next]

my main issue was finding out what people's experience with the LinMB was like in conjunction with the L2...

because my initial thoughts would be it is overkill to have two limiters, but they are different kinds of limiters, no?

so it's not completely a text book issue, it's more of an opinion issue than anything...which comes from people.

that har bal thing is definitely a sales pitch and i saw through that.

it is also a very general, quick, easy fix type of tutorial.

but for me, i haven't ever had any experience with the LinMB WITH the L2, and it helped...that doesn't mean this me, or anyone in this forum supports mixing with your eyes.

i'm taking the positives from something

i hope you guys can too.

it doesn't all come down to one thing.

by me appreciating some of the info on the har bal page, it doesn't mean i'm staning behind, and following everything they say.

but nobody was responding with any info on the possibility of a the LinMB with the L2.

and i just got them, and i was just asking to find out people's thoughts, because i personally don't like manuals, no matter how helpful they are... i'm a hands on/intuitive/artist type (if you haven't noticed) and i do much better with experimenting, and sometimes all i need is a quick intro, and off i go...

regarding the combo of these two plug ins...i find it a bit too much, and i wanted to see who agreed...not make concrete statements that "mastering = compression" or "you can mix with your eyes because the har bal website says so" or "every mastering session requires all these FX in a row"

i'm just curious to see what people think of these two together, cuz i'm having a hard time getting them to collaborate on some songs, but on others it sounds great...and i'm wondering why.

some songs seem to get completely ruined when i run them through the LinMD (even by itself)

and others can be brought to life quite a bit.

obviously i need to work with it more, and that's the best way to learn...and gain wisdom.

but i like asking around too

it helps to get other people's points of views...

gearslutz is like a room full of all the 5th beatles you can "imagine"

and i wanna listen in...

[JCM]

(mr) next , I think you should read the manual on these plug-ins as it really does answer the questions you are asking. Also , there are many unique features and approaches employed by them that would not be readily apparent just by listening or "looking" at the gui.

[ricsdix]

I think you have to search some learning software and try to learn out of them...




_________________
Education Software

[Bob Olhsson]

Learning software or hardware for mastering is pretty meaningless outside the context of a top quality monitor system. You can't fix what you can't hear and you risk not being able to hear that things don't need fixing.

People have done award winning mastering with the Waves diamond bundle. The key is setting up a monitoring situation where you can hear and a procedure where you can avoid hyping yourself with more volume but worse sound.

[AcoosticZoo]

Originally Posted by Bob Olhsson

Learning software or hardware for mastering is pretty meaningless outside the context of a top quality monitor system. You can't fix what you can't hear and you risk not being able to hear that things don't need fixing.

People have done award winning mastering with the Waves diamond bundle. The key is setting up a monitoring situation where you can hear and a procedure where you can avoid hyping yourself with more volume but worse sound.

yes, no point fiddling with frequencies if you can't hear what you're doing due to biased monitoring.

Mastering isn't for everyone, u must have universal EARS! and years of Experience in order to help mixes translate.

In my experience, Using LinMB and L2 in the Master Bus is a very powerful way to get your mixes Loud during Mixing, but I don't recommend it for mastering. huh? what? yes, it just comes down to taste. Many paths and options to get a great sound, but i like to KISS. Remember, it's 90% up to the mixing engineer to get the right sound, Mastering engineers can do very little if you mix badly. YES. that's the TRUTH.

The Trick is a lot of little. ie. Do little bits of enhancement one at a time.

0.5 db change here and 1 db change there, again and again till it sounds right.


Peace.
Josef Horhay
Mixing Engineer.