Don't compress & eq the mix. Do it on mastering.

[Bob Amirian]

OK, what's the real value of this advice?

Should we compress only channel group tracks and some instruments but leave the mixdown uncompressed and un-EQ'd because a mastering engineer will do it anyway with much better tools and skill?

[jeremyglover]

i say get it sounding the way you want it to before it goes to mastering.
i hear what your saying though.

[Chaellus]

no what they mean is if your trying to do compression for loudness and pre master to not becaue they can do it better and because if you bring up the level it will only distort before they get it and then they cant work with it as they would normally... if you use the 2 buss for character and you know what you are doing then its diffrent but bascilly they are trying to tell inexperainced people to not mess with compression and eq because then there work will be that much harder and it wont be as good if then didnt try to

[Bob Amirian]

Originally Posted by Chaellus

no what they mean is if your trying to do compression for loudness and pre master to not becaue they can do it better and because if you bring up the level it will only distort before they get it and then they cant work with it as they would normally... if you use the 2 buss for character and you know what you are doing then its diffrent but bascilly they are trying to tell inexperainced people to not mess with compression and eq because then there work will be that much harder and it wont be as good if then didnt try to

Thx, but it's not the issue here. I was told so not because I overcompress or slam the mixes so there's no air in it. tutt

Some mastering engineers like to get the group submixes of instruments and vocals separately and glue them together during mastering. It's like they were doing mix themselves and then the master.

I prefer doing mixes I dig while preserving the air in it, and then bring it to a masterer.
Which is so good ol' oldchool way.

But some say it's better the other way and now I want to confront it with your opinions.

[warhead]

Are you mixing something right now that is going to be sent to mastering?

I'd ask the mastering engineer for an opinion on your first mix if possible.

Are you making demos for local bands, or inexpensive records that the band simply cannot or does not budget for mastering?

Then it needs to sound as finished as possible with the tools and skill you have at your disposal, now you are the mastering engineer as well.

Hiring a mastering engineer should be hiring a great set of experienced ears in a room that tells him or her exactly how your mix is going to translate into the real world on most systems. Beyond that it also should be hiring them to enhance your mixes, hammer them into sounding like they belong together on the same record EQ and volume wise, and use skill and tools to hand you back something better than you handed them.

It is doubtful in a home studio monitoring environment that most could understand translation as well as a good mastering engineer in their own room. Drastic EQ and compression on the 2 buss overall in those cases should be a no-no in my opinion. I agree the message warning against this is aimed at lesser experienced recordists.

War

[bgrotto]

I always mix with the final version in mind. 9 out of 10 times, I don't want the masters to come back sounding different than the mixes; I find that kind of irritating.

That means if the mix calls for buss compression, it's gonna get it (but it'll get it early on in the process; I'm not just gonna slap on a mix buss compressor at the end for turds 'n tee-hees). If it calls for a little bit of added top end, it'll get that, too. I'm of the opinion that if you hear a need for mix buss processing, but don't add it at the mix, you're not really doing your job. To me it's the same as knowing the vocal needed to be louder, but just refusing to turn it up because someone on the internets told you that there was a rule dictating vocal levels. It's inane.

Another thing to consider is this: if you don't know who is going to be mastering your mix, a liberal use of mix-buss processing can (for better or worse, mind you!!) tie the hands of the ME and ensure he or she won't destroy the work you've done. This is kind of an extreme stance, I know, but I think there's some merit to it. Luckily for me, I almost always have some say over who the ME is gonna be. I'd proceed here with caution...

[warhead]

Originally Posted by bgrotto

turds 'n tee-hees

Adding this to my vocabulary now.

War

[bgrotto]

Originally Posted by warhead

Adding this to my vocabulary now.

War

I aim to please.

[jayfrigo]

The only thing to always avoid is hard limiting or clipping purely for level. Other than that, generally speaking, if it gets you where you're going, then it's welcome assistance.

You should generally be able to get the EQ right at the channels. If you find yourself regularly using EQ across the 2 bus in a mix context, consider working a little harder at the channels. I'm not saying it's something to never do, but it should be uncommon, and subtle. The exception is putting something like a pair of pultecs across for the color rather than to fix EQ problems.

Compression is fine to add during the mix. It can change internal balances and alter a mix pretty significantly, and if it's a part of the sound you are going for, it's entirely appropriate. Try to remain reasonable, perhaps even conservative if you aren't going for a particular effect, at least until you are experienced enough to know exactly how it will translate. In other words, don't feel you have to avoid it, but don't feel you have to use it either. Many times it sounds worse. Be honest about whether you need it. Don't do it just because "you're supposed to."

[Riccardo]

Originally Posted by Bob Amirian

I prefer doing mixes I dig while preserving the air in it, and then bring it to a masterer.
Which is so good ol' oldchool way.

That's not old school, that is the way it is, as simple as that. You are the mixer.

OR

if the mastering engineer can't get the air or the level you are asking for and tells you it is a mixing issue...........go back to the board and make an effort to understand what and why is not working as it should.

[Bob Amirian]

Originally Posted by jayfrigo

The only thing to always avoid is hard limiting or clipping purely for level. Other than that, generally speaking, if it gets you where you're going, then it's welcome assistance.

You should generally be able to get the EQ right at the channels. If you find yourself regularly using EQ across the 2 bus in a mix context, consider working a little harder at the channels. I'm not saying it's something to never do, but it should be uncommon, and subtle. The exception is putting something like a pair of pultecs across for the color rather than to fix EQ problems.

Compression is fine to add during the mix. It can change internal balances and alter a mix pretty significantly, and if it's a part of the sound you are going for, it's entirely appropriate. Try to remain reasonable, perhaps even conservative if you aren't going for a particular effect, at least until you are experienced enough to know exactly how it will translate. In other words, don't feel you have to avoid it, but don't feel you have to use it either. Many times it sounds worse. Be honest about whether you need it. Don't do it just because "you're supposed to."

Excellent. It should be written on the wall of every private studio.

[Bob Amirian]

Originally Posted by Riccardo

That's not old school, that is the way it is, as simple as that. You are the mixer.

OR

if the mastering engineer can't get the air or the level you are asking for and tells you it is a mixing issue...........go back to the board and make an effort to understand what and why is not working as it should.

Great point, too. thumbsup

I started this thread because right now I'm working with the ME who usually asks his clients to bring him not just the mixes but group submixes OR - most of times - instrumental mix and vocal tracks separately, he likes to glue it all together by himself.

Whaddya think about it?

[sdd17]

Hello,
I was very surprised to find out recently after being so carerfull
not to give the mastering guy a file without enough headroom to do his thing
how many mixes from well known and established mixers hand over flat line wave files. No headroom and tons of saturation. There fore reinforcing the theory of get the mix to sound the way you want it to sound before giving it the mastering guy

I agree with most of the posts here, get the mix sounding the way you want it to sound and leave headroom for the mastering cat
It really helps to have a guy you work with and know what you are going to get back.

[Bob Amirian]

In my area there are no excellent ME (sic!), since it's a quite new art form in my country...

... just like hotspots with free WiFi or Haagen Dazs ice cream

No kidding

Perhaps that's why one of the best ME came up with such idea

That leads me to a conclusion that I should stretch out and get the ME from the outside.

Anybody here accepting credit card payments and doing beautiful masters overseas, with client uploading wave files on ME's ftp and waiting for the job done?

[Riccardo]

Originally Posted by Bob Amirian

Great point, too. thumbsup

I started this thread because right now I'm working with the ME who usually asks his clients to bring him not just the mixes but group submixes OR - most of times - instrumental mix and vocal tracks separately, he likes to glue it all together by himself.

Whaddya think about it?

People around here will have different opinions on this subject. Indeed it can be useful in a situation where for whatever reason you can't go back and recall the mix.
I personally still think that as in the old days a mix should need very little. If we are mixing groups and glueing than it is a different skill, different perspective, different profession, albeit in the same field. I'd never ever specifically request a client to do that. If he or she wants to bring in groups, stems or sessions then be it but the ME requesting would be like telling the mixing engineer "look I am better than you at this, I can do a better job and you mixes you are bound to be seriously unbalanced"


..............just my opinion of course........

[Chaellus]

Originally Posted by Bob Amirian
Great point, too. thumbsup

I started this thread because right now I'm working with the ME who usually asks his clients to bring him not just the mixes but group submixes OR - most of times - instrumental mix and vocal tracks separately, he likes to glue it all together by himself.

Whaddya think about it?




the only reason a ME should have more than just an audio file would be for maybe a radio edit version master tv master accapella or something along the lines of that nature...if he is just doing that for the regualar master id have to question his ability to master....and like poster above said he is bascily mixing..

[Bob Amirian]

Originally Posted by Riccardo

People around here will have different opinions on this subject. Indeed it can be useful in a situation where for whatever reason you can't go back and recall the mix.
I personally still think that as in the old days a mix should need very little. If we are mixing groups and glueing than it is a different skill, different perspective, different profession, albeit in the same field. I'd never ever specifically request a client to do that. If he or she wants to bring in groups, stems or sessions then be it but the ME requesting would be like telling the mixing engineer "look I am better than you at this, I can do a better job and you mixes you are bound to be seriously unbalanced"


..............just my opinion of course........

You definitely may be right since the ME I'm talking about used to be a mixing engineer before and continues being a man of rather odd manners.

Anyway, thanks for your replies, most of you just confirmed my impression that it's somewhat spaced-out idea.

However I remember a suggestion of a client who said "I see you and "that ME" use the same gear - Manley Massive Passive, Vari-Mu, Thermionic Culture Phoenix and Crane Song STC-8, so you're probably doubling your work. Isn't it strange?".

I get the feeling I'm surrounded by very strange people

[Bob Amirian]

Originally Posted by Chaellus

the only reason a ME should have more than just an audio file would be for maybe a radio edit version master tv master accapella or something along the lines of that nature...if he is just doing that for the regualar master id have to question his ability to master....and like poster above said he is bascily mixing..

+5thumbsup

[MAzevedo]

Originally Posted by Bob Amirian

Anybody here accepting credit card payments and doing beautiful masters overseas, with client uploading wave files on ME's ftp and waiting for the job done?

I'd think most of the folks with full-time mastering businesses can do this now, I know we've been doing it for years and there are a few folks a Lucey who work almost exclusively by FTP.

If you see someone on the boards who's vibe feels like it would work for you, drop them a line. Working with a worldwide clientele is part and parcel of doing business these days.

[Bob Amirian]

Originally Posted by MAzevedo

I'd think most of the folks with full-time mastering businesses can do this now, I know we've been doing it for years and there are a few folks a Lucey who work almost exclusively by FTP.

If you see someone on the boards who's vibe feels like it would work for you, drop them a line. Working with a worldwide clientele is part and parcel of doing business these days.

I thought so, analog children of the digital era

Thing is... I see many guys whose vibe's appealing to me, but how can I know whether their work does so without hearing any of their sound clips?

Perhaps should we start a new thread for MEs where they could post links to their sites where waves of pre-master and post-master clips are located? Then ev'body would know whom to hire.

[Bob Amirian]

Originally Posted by MAzevedo

I'd think most of the folks with full-time mastering businesses can do this now, I know we've been doing it for years and there are a few folks a Lucey who work almost exclusively by FTP.

If you see someone on the boards who's vibe feels like it would work for you, drop them a line. Working with a worldwide clientele is part and parcel of doing business these days.

Well done! I can see your site offers such clipsthumbsup

[Chaellus]

yea i beilieve most mastering engineers that do it for a living have also take FTP, mixing engineers too

[Edward_Vinatea]

Originally Posted by Bob Amirian

OK, what's the real value of this advice?

Should we compress only channel group tracks and some instruments but leave the mixdown uncompressed and un-EQ'd because a mastering engineer will do it anyway with much better tools and skill?

Get it to sound the way you want it as much as you can. Make sure the levels between all individual parts/tracks can be heard even when you play the mix at low level. Leave headroom for mastering.

Best,

[Adam Dempsey]

Again, to reinforce what's been said by most..
Sure, if you know what you're doing compress for the sound of it, but not for level. If in doubt, simply supply both versions. A good mastering facility will have the right tool and know-how for the particular job, otherwise you may well be locking yourself into a particular sound which may be out of context with other mixes. We look at the bigger picture - the context - in mastering, not as an isolated mix. Talking about any pros or cons of each version can be another avenue for getting into the vibe of the project and establishing the client/ME relationship.

[Bob Olhsson]

Overall compression and eq. can sound way better when you still have control over the individual elements of the mix. This is especially true of more "colorful" gear. In mastering we mostly use compresion and eq. as a useful correction while a mixer is in the position to use them as very powerful creative tools.

[Bob Amirian]

Originally Posted by Bob Olhsson

Overall compression and eq. can sound way better when you still have control over the individual elements of the mix. This is especially true of more "colorful" gear. In mastering we mostly use compresion and eq. as a useful correction while a mixer is in the position to use them as very powerful creative tools.

True, thanks for this one

[Bob Amirian]

Originally Posted by Boomshanka

Again, to reinforce what's been said by most..
Sure, if you know what you're doing compress for the sound of it, but not for level. If in doubt, simply supply both versions. A good mastering facility will have the right tool and know-how for the particular job, otherwise you may well be locking yourself into a particular sound which may be out of context with other mixes. We look at the bigger picture - the context - in mastering, not as an isolated mix. Talking about any pros or cons of each version can be another avenue for getting into the vibe of the project and establishing the client/ME relationship.

You're right too, but that's in the perfect world...

In the real one it's pretty hard to find a real mastering's master (!) in my country. Sure, there are some but even though the gear is the same as yours, there's something missing..

I think one of the reasons why ME here are doing their job done on a "almost there" basis is that they... have too many projects to take care for simultaneously, thus they sleep not enough and they can't stay focused and fresh-eared for the whole day.

[dcollins]

Originally Posted by Bob Amirian

OK, what's the real value of this advice?

Should we compress only channel group tracks and some instruments but leave the mixdown uncompressed and un-EQ'd because a mastering engineer will do it anyway with much better tools and skill?

Nonsense.


DC

[Adam Dempsey]

Originally Posted by Bob Amirian

You're right too, but that's in the perfect world...

In the real one it's pretty hard to find a real mastering's master (!) in my country. Sure, there are some but even though the gear is the same as yours, there's something missing..

.. could be the service, experience and investment in communicating on a project as early on as possible? (*remembers what forum this is*) as far as being "the same gear" as here I can only vouch for the custom Augspurger room, custom modified Duntechs, custom console, custom modified gear.. knowing only when and how to use what, and giving each project 110% deserved attention.

[Marjan]

Originally Posted by Bob Amirian

...vocal tracks separately, he likes to glue it all together by himself.

I've tried that in the past to see how it went and didn't like the results. It's totally inappropriate cause the vocal track will never sit in the mix the same way.
If in doubt, it's preferable to send the ME two or three versions with different vocal levels and let him choose.