The analog brickwall limiter thread

[666666]

Wanted to compile a list, with opinions / reviews, of all existing analog hardware "brickwall" type limiters... of mastering level quality.

By "analog", I mean "all analog processing" (like say an STC-8 for instance)... not a hardware box with internal digital processing (like a hardware L2). And I'm focusing on the "brickwall" aspect, looking at limiters that can be used as final "peak protection" tools.

One may ask, why not just use software peak protection like an L2? Well, that can be a topic for another discussion, but for now, let's just look at the available analog stuff. Would just like to learn more about what's out there.

So far, I am aware of the STC-8 (which in addition to it's wonderful compressor section also has a great limiter section), the Pendulum PL-2, and the Aphex Dominator (I had a few Dominators in the past, they functioned well as brickwall limiters but I wasn't hip on the "sound" of them so they are no longer here).

Besides the STC-8, PL-2 and Dominator, what other choices are there?

Again, key words here, "all-analog", and "brickwall".

[inlinenl]

yep, interesting ...

what about the maselec MPL-2 .. would be nice to do some less clipping off the AD.
I never used it and can not tell you how it sounds/feels/works .. but maybe some users with exp. can chime in ..
I would use it as last in my A-chain .. or first in the A chain .. depends ..
but it would prevent to "much" pusghing the AD.

MASELEC

[jdg]

you can't "Brickwall" limit with analog.
but i think the closest thing made these days is the Pendulum PL-2

[huub]

Originally Posted by jdg

you can't "Brickwall" limit with analog.
but i think the closest thing made these days is the Pendulum PL-2

We used to have DNA (dutch broadcast manufacturer) dictator limiters in our analog broadcast trucks.. These were true analog brickwall limiters (sure you can brickwall in analog, it's just making sure the voltage cannot go higher than a certain value, I suppose)..
They sound horrible though.. We still have one or two..

[jdg]

that would be clipping, tho... that counts these days it seems

[macc]

tfpro p38 has a 'soft clip', if that counts.

Sounds like absolute sh!te.

[Cellotron]

The limiter section in the NTP 179-120 / 179-160 / 179-170 is particularly good and has certainly been used in many masters.

The limiter section is pretty decent in the Focusrite Blue 330 also (although I personally nearly always prefer to use digital tools for limiting chores over analog ones).

The Drawmer Three Sum has an analog limiter in it which sounds horrible.

Best regards,
Steve Berson

[666666]

Originally Posted by jdg

you can't "Brickwall" limit with analog....

Interesting.

But one trick I use is to feed a slightly advanced copy of the program to the limiter's sidechain input, effectively creating "look-ahead" operation. So that takes care of the possibility of any transients popping out ahead of the reduction function. Using this "trick", would you still say that analog limiters cannot do "brickwall"?

By the way, I'm thinking along the lines of just catching a few occasional stray peaks with such a limiter, not "slamming" a mix into it.

[jdg]

i think with a "clip" circuit, analog can brickwall.
i rescind my statement!

[huub]

Originally Posted by jdg

that would be clipping, tho... that counts these days it seems

Yeah, the dictator either uses a 100 nanosecond attack, or limits 2 to 3 db before an actual clipper circuit is engaged.. Anyway, I always thought both options sounded like poop. (well, a db or 2 of limiting was fairly inaudible I must confess)..

In Analog, I usually chose to use a compressor (Urei 1178) with a superfast attack instead of limiting.. (because you can hit the urei really hard and it'll still sound nice..)

[Andreas G]

Originally Posted by 666666

Again, key words here, "all-analog", and "brickwall".

-EMT 266 Transienten Limiter

-Höf dynamic master

[djwaudio]

Originally Posted by jdg

you can't "Brickwall" limit with analog.
but i think the closest thing made these days is the Pendulum PL-2

I have the Maselec MPL-2 and it does indeed brick wall limit. It has control down to .1 dB, on a very accurate threshold pot. It's very easy to control and can help reduce the amount of limiting you do elsewhere.

It's a clean sounding limiter, and with it's accuracy, it can be placed right before the A/Ds. I have it next to last in line since I started putting the Passeq just before the converters.

If I really need a lot of limiting, the MPL 2 can't quite get you to Death Magnetic levels on it's own. A little here and a little there works best for me.

I've had both the Dominator II and the STC 8. I generally prefer the limiter on the Maselec. Though, I liked the limiter on the STC when used sparingly. I couldn't ever get the Dominator to be transparent enough for my tastes.

[djwaudio]

I'll also add that I really like the final limiter in the dbx 162SL. It has a clip mode and a tape saturation effect option on the output. I rarely use the clipping, but it has been done with success here. The tape effect though, wile not sounding a whole lot like tape, often adds an excellent glue, and catches those stray peaks when used sparingly.

It's not a brick wall IIRC.

[mercurydime]

i have not found the stc-8 limiter to be so very useful for my mastering needs: it's quite "grabby" for my tastes...

[staudio]

Originally Posted by 666666

But one trick I use is to feed a slightly advanced copy of the program to the limiter's sidechain input, effectively creating "look-ahead" operation. So that takes care of the possibility of any transients popping out ahead of the reduction function.

That is a very cool idea, "look-ahead" in analog. How much offset do you typically use for the sidechain feed? I can imagine that too much offset (over several ms) would create problems. Maybe the offset should be slightly greater than the attack time of the limiter but not much more.

[PrinsJan]

Originally Posted by huub

We used to have DNA (dutch broadcast manufacturer) dictator limiters in our analog broadcast trucks.. These were true analog brickwall limiters (sure you can brickwall in analog, it's just making sure the voltage cannot go higher than a certain value, I suppose)..
They sound horrible though.. We still have one or two..

YES !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Got em too Fantastic clipper !

[666666]

Originally Posted by staudio

That is a very cool idea, "look-ahead" in analog. How much offset do you typically use for the sidechain feed? I can imagine that too much offset (over several ms) would create problems. Maybe the offset should be slightly greater than the attack time of the limiter but not much more.

I do not recall off hand how much offset I typically use... it all depends on the program and the analog compressor / limiter being used... I set it all up and then adjust the offset by ear with everything running... I look at adjusting the offset like adjusting the attack time... of course it's not exactly the same, but... the offset becomes just another adjustment you tweak until the end result sounds good. This trick is not really necessary unless you are dealing with some ultra peaky stuff that seems to always jump out ahead of whatever analog processor you're using. Works great with analog gates too of course, etc. And yes, if the offset (advance) to the sidechain is too early, the result will sound goofy... but again, just tweak by ear, you soon will find the spot where everything is sitting together just right.

But this brings about another issue in the quest for a great analog limiter... the presence of a sidechain input. The STC-8 does have a sidechain input (even though you need a special cable to make it happen)... but, does anyone know if the Pendulum PL-2 has a sidechain input? How about the Maselec MPL-2? I personally consider a sidechain input to be a critically important feature.

[gyraf]

NTP179-160 (and the stereo '170) has a diode clipping brickwall that sets in until the limiter gain reduction sets in and takes over. Works extremely well.

Jakob E.

[Ben F]

I haven't heard an analogue limiter that can beat a good digital limiter. The Maselec MPL-2 was very good but preferred the Weiss DS-1.

[dietrich10]

somehow I missed my Dominator II on certain dance mastering so traded for another.
Will do the mods to bypass most features to shorten the coloring.

I did some tests running the DomII vs SPL Dynamaxx and found sound translated tvery close but I could get more level from the aphex.

[Adam Dempsey]

I steer clear of the STC-8's limiter which is way too crude.
I have used an Orban 418A in the past, and to good effect, bypassing its broadcast-tuned pre emphasis curves. Not the cleanest but definitely hard limits and can give plenty of grab and tightness.
Well exceeded by other options here now.. including the hard-to-beat flexibility of the Vertigo. Thinking out loud, there's also the Vari-Mu in limit mode, though can't say I've ever felt the need to use it. Again, it's not a brick wall & I'd stick to utilising something for the sound (or lack) of it rather than pure level.

[RedTuxedo]

Could a great A/D be considered an analog limiter? I really like the Manley SLAM! as a limiter and for the A/Ds.

[soundsundergroun]

Distressor with Dist 3 engaged. Slow attack, fast release, low ratios help you dial in the brick wall. Engaging the link detector will also get you the brick wall faster....oh this is not of mastering quality though i don't think

[Delta Heavy]

Originally Posted by soundsundergroun

Distressor with Dist 3 engaged. Slow attack, fast release, low ratios

how on earth would this act as a brickwall limiter?

[soundsundergroun]

Originally Posted by Delta Heavy

how on earth would this act as a brickwall limiter?

You'll hit the redline (brickwall) light harder with these settings. Don't believe me, throw a snare track through it and you'll see the peaks are leveled right off, each snare peaking at the same level.

[mischa janisch]

Originally Posted by inlinenl

yep, interesting ...

what about the maselec MPL-2 .. would be nice to do some less clipping off the AD.
I never used it and can not tell you how it sounds/feels/works .. but maybe some users with exp. can chime in ..
I would use it as last in my A-chain .. or first in the A chain .. depends ..
but it would prevent to "much" pusghing the AD.

MASELEC

We have the MPL-2 and while I use the De-Esser very often, the Limiter doesn't get much use. Maybe one Song within 3 Albums or so... It's a lot softer sounding and does not give you this in your face sound as an L2 or clipping the AD do, which of course can be a good thing.
But more often - this is not what the clients want.

[inlinenl]

Originally Posted by mischa janisch

We have the MPL-2 and while I use the De-Esser very often, the Limiter doesn't get much use. Maybe one Song within 3 Albums or so... It's a lot softer sounding and does not give you this in your face sound as an L2 or clipping the AD do, which of course can be a good thing.
But more often - this is not what the clients want.

I really need/want a second WEISS-DS1 .....

[djwaudio]

Originally Posted by Upawholestep

Could a great A/D be considered an analog limiter? I really like the Manley SLAM! as a limiter and for the A/Ds.

Infinity to 1 limiter... Sure.

Beware of extreme amounts of harmonic and inharmonic distortion from aliasing and making square waves.

That was outlawed of coarse in the decision of '08 after Metallica & Rick Rubin went too far. So, there will be an angry mob at your front door if you do this on your records.

[WBM]

The PL-2 is the way to go, don't clip the A/D and get into the PC ready to burn, I'm not real friendly with plug-ins at the end of the chain and that's why I used them before get into the analog world, the L2 hardware take things away when the PL-2 you still have the sonic reference you want, I would like to try the Weiss but to much $ for a digital box.

[mischa janisch]

Originally Posted by djwaudio

Infinity to 1 limiter... Sure.

Beware of extreme amounts of harmonic and inharmonic distortion from aliasing and making square waves.

That was outlawed of coarse in the decision of '08 after Metallica & Rick Rubin went too far. So, there will be an angry mob at your front door if you do this on your records.

Seriously - I don't think that clipping the AD is going to be removed as a technique. While the awareness that lauder is not ALWAYS better might have been raised (a little), I still seriously doubt that as a result of Death Magnetic RMS levels of Pop and Rock records will significantly drop below -7dbfs RMS...

What I would really hope for is that as a result of the current discussion I would get more Mixes in the -12dbfs (max) RMS range. In terms of RMS levels I now get a lot of -7 to -9 stuff, some as loud as -5 to -6 dbfs! And these are NOT exceptions!
This is what really has to change, since it absolutely doesn't make any sense at all!!!

The sad thing is that the I get those insane levels only from 'pros' who have been doing this for years - the project studio guys and gearslutz readers are much more level and sound concious. Always keep in mind - as much as we might think gearslutz is a great place, the world outside can be quite different.

Just read the postings of Masterer and for a second try to believe that NOT everyone working at Sterling Sound or any other famous Mastering facility is a greedy, careless, music-hating monster who just gets a kick out of insanley clipping some 10.000,- USD converter in a 400.000 USD room with killer acoustics while listening to the result on the best speakers money can buy...