Mastering MP3's,.. wtf??

[ONDRAY]

I got Mp3 files from a band who mixed at a studio who just shut down and they can’t get a hold of anyone. They have the mixdowns in MP3, the engineer emailed them just days before everyone disappeared. The band’s been trying to chase there files down for month and finally they just want them mastered and done with.

So now I have 320kbps mp3’s to master. This is the first. Is there anything I should pay attention to in order to enhance what was lost in encoding? Is decoding them to 48/24 even worth it at this point?

[miscreant]

I think your priority should be to minimize the effects of any damage done during the encoding process, not recover lost audio information. It's gone. Treat the files with kid gloves--convert them to a lossless format asap, leave them at their native sample rate, and master as you normally would.

Most of the problems I've heard in MP3 recordings are fluttery or washy high end. That shouldn't be too much of a problem with a 320kbps file but I'd imagine if there was a spot to go easy in your process, it would be top end EQ. Adding too much there might highlight audible compression artifacts.

[Masterbrother]

Wah, I have to master from MP3's!
Poor me. Oh please help.
Shut up and eq, weeny.

[ONDRAY]

Originally Posted by Masterbrother

Wah, I have to master from MP3's!
Poor me. Oh please help.
Shut up and eq, weeny.

okay, that's uncalled for? Wow I didin't know I had to eq, gee thanks.

[Masterbrother]

Just havin' a little fun with you bro.

[jordanstoner]

As has been the case since the beginning of the inter-web, sarcasm and other subtle but complex emotions cannot be easily interpreted via text alone, leading people to think that you're just a d*ck.

In order to defend yourself against such accusations, tone may be set with the proper modifier tags:
[just joking], or <jj>
[/sarcasm]
[/nag]
<IGH> (In Good Humor)

You may also use a combination of these, or create your own HTEML (Hypertext Emoting Markup Language) tags.

So, now you have been trained with proper web-etiquette, I hope you don't repeat the same mistake. Otherwise, we'll rip your gonads off and feed them to the other trolls, you filth-spewing c*ck-stain.
<jj,bnr> (just joking, but not really).

[Fluxpod]

Originally Posted by Masterbrother

Just havin' a little fun with you bro.

Hey BRO thats totally awsome DUDE......

[jordanstoner]

Hey BRO thats totally awsome DUDE......

And here, Fluxpod demonstrates the effectiveness of the CAPS LOCK key, immediately drawing your attention to certain words that leave no doubt as to the tone in which they would be spoken.

Contrary to popular belief, engineers don't have a single funny bone in their collective bodies. They were replaced long ago by bitterness and hatred, advanced cases existing mostly in the mastering engineer community (because they have to deal with things like mastering MP3's).... They are fragile creatures; do not feed them insults, no matter how well-intentioned. They only need the slightest reason to snap... And then your precious MP3's will be low-passed at 7000 Hz...

Emoticons help calm their nerves.

[ONDRAY]

cool, jokes, we're cool... now let's not have this turn into another mastering forum bickering fest.

btw, loving the national geographic report on ME's, classic :)

[Fluxpod]

You missed the I on the words tho. Thats most important.

Edit...Ok seriously now.You should convert the files to .wav and then start mastering as usuall.
See what happens. :)

[Andy Krehm]

Originally Posted by ONDRAY

I got Mp3 files from a band who mixed at a studio who just shut down and they can’t get a hold of anyone. They have the mixdowns in MP3, the engineer emailed them just days before everyone disappeared. The band’s been trying to chase there files down for month and finally they just want them mastered and done with.

So now I have 320kbps mp3’s to master. This is the first. Is there anything I should pay attention to in order to enhance what was lost in encoding? Is decoding them to 48/24 even worth it at this point?

Consider your self lucky that they are 320kbps! Treat them as if they are the final mix files and carry on!

[Masterbrother]

Originally Posted by jordanstoner

As has been the case since the beginning of the inter-web, sarcasm and other subtle but complex emotions cannot be easily interpreted via text alone, leading people to think that you're just a d*ck.

In order to defend yourself against such accusations, tone may be set with the proper modifier tags:
[just joking], or <jj>
[/sarcasm]
[/nag]
<IGH> (In Good Humor)

You may also use a combination of these, or create your own HTEML (Hypertext Emoting Markup Language) tags.

So, now you have been trained with proper web-etiquette, I hope you don't repeat the same mistake. Otherwise, we'll rip your gonads off and feed them to the other trolls, you filth-spewing c*ck-stain.
<jj,bnr> (just joking, but not really).

Thanks for the words of wisdom
Now I feel embarassed
I used to think words were enough and that good humored sarcasm
would be obvious.

Ondray,


I would treat these files just like any other digital source.
I've worked on some pretty bad sounding 96-24 files and
some very acceptable MP3's.

There are more songs out there that were mastered from low res files
than you may think.

[jordanstoner]

Sorry Masterbrother, didn't mean to embarrass you. Just trying to keep things civil (while being a bit of a prick myself - but all in good fun).

Here's something I've wondered about - if you get high-frequency garbage, could you split the high band out and run some noise removal on it to smooth out the top? Or would that make things worse (I've heard artifacts left by extreme noise removal, and they sound similar to those left by low-res MP3 conversion)? Maybe some light reverb in the top end to mask it...

Also, when this gets back to iTunes, it may get worse or more apparent - so you might want to try some processing and then convert back to MP3 just to see how it holds up before burning the final master.

[narcoman]

Originally Posted by Andy Krehm

Consider your self lucky that they are 320kbps! Treat them as if they are the final mix files and carry on!

how do you knwo that the files havent been "finalized" or some other hideous process? I'd tell the band to keep trying to get the mixes...

[ONDRAY]

Originally Posted by jordanstoner

blah blah blah.....Snip...
Here's something I've wondered about - if you get high-frequency garbage, could you split the high band out and run some noise removal on it to smooth out the top? Or would that make things worse (I've heard artifacts left by extreme noise removal, and they sound similar to those left by low-res MP3 conversion)? Maybe some light reverb in the top end to mask it..........

Not a bad idea, I'll try out some things and get creative. The situation got worst, 4 of the 10 files are actually 192kpbs, with huge chorusing/flanging happening on the highs.. man oh man, if I were this band I'd hunt town the engineer and get my files, the mixes are pretty good, it's a shame the mp3's suck.

[ONDRAY]

Originally Posted by narcoman

how do you knwo that the files havent been "finalized" or some other hideous process? I'd tell the band to keep trying to get the mixes...

now that 4 of the files are 192, I've highly recommended them to hunt down the engineer and get the files.

[jdg]

what ive done before with an mp3 source, put a steep LP on the side, way up, as most of the fishy sounds are masked in the mid channel.

[chopstickkk]

Demp3er in the waves mercury bundle can do the trick. just be careful with the threshold and make sure you set the goodifier slider to no more than 3-4dB of red on the deslush meter.

[ONDRAY]

Originally Posted by chopstickkk

Demp3er in the waves mercury bundle can do the trick. just be careful with the threshold and make sure you set the goodifier slider to no more than 3-4dB of red on the deslush meter.

don't see it in their bundle online or on google. Is Demp3er the correct spelling? don't even see anything similar. Are you pulling my leg? a De-MP3er, that would be cool.

[basstracker7769]

Heres a thought run them out of computer through a top notice Mic Pre/tube Pre into a High End Convertor Light piped into another computer
then take the waves you recorded into your computer making sure they are at least 24bit and mix them as the waves they are (stems) then master them
Kinda of a process but i have done this to other tracks before ( such as ones on cassette, 1/4" Reel to reel etc) This does add some fullness and warmth and then you can re EQ compress etc to your liking
You might be surprised how good it can sound again
Just be carefull of levels etc as you transfer and convert

[chopstickkk]

Originally Posted by ONDRAY

don't see it in their bundle online or on google. Is Demp3er the correct spelling? don't even see anything similar. Are you pulling my leg? a De-MP3er, that would be cool.

real sorry. in the spirit of the sarcasm running through this thread i thought i'd join in. obviously too subtle.

on a serious note, if the highs are too slushy, perhaps a suitable harmonic/aural exciter might be able to provide an artificial zing to mask the slush?

[E-Irizarry]

Mp3´s are a tad annoying, but they can be mastered best as possible with Sound Forge 8/9 or WaveLab.

[jayfrigo]

Originally Posted by E-Irizarry

Mp3´s are a tad annoying, but they can be mastered best as possible with Sound Forge 8/9 or WaveLab.

I'm not sure why sound forge or wavelab would be any better than other DAWs at working with MP3s. We're not talking about MP3 encoding, just playback from MP3 for mastering. Decoding is not nearly the unpredictable crapshoot that encoding can be.

[Edward_Vinatea]

Originally Posted by ONDRAY

Is there anything I should pay attention to in order to enhance what was lost in encoding? Is decoding them to 48/24 even worth it at this point?

Processing at 24 bit / 48kHz should be good. The main thing is trying to master as if you would a high resolution audio file, paying attention at the outcome as you normally do ---

[Bob Olhsson]

The biggest problem will be what happens when people go to make MP3s again from the mastered version.

I'd also look a bit further into their story. Lots of studios are only willing to give out MP3s before the final bill is paid. I've never heard of a studio completely disappearing but I've heard of lots of folks showing up for mastering with nothing but a cassette or 7.5 tape because they didn't pay their bill. It could be perfectly legitimate however you could also be the next person to not get paid.

[Edward_Vinatea]

Originally Posted by Bob Olhsson

The biggest problem will be what happens when people go to make MP3s again from the mastered version.

Yeah, I guess the reason is you convert from to 24 to 16 first then you make the mp3 copy. I am not sure why this is the recommendation, I haven't paid attention to that as i usually rip from master CDs ---

[FaTT Dust]

In this situation, I'd use an analogue chain to master, plus parallel processing, to beef it all up. Keep levels hot, but DO NOT tear any more of the audio with over hot levels, and... try get all the gain you want before and without the help of the limiter, in the analogue domain.

Also, if it's a joint stereo file you are in luck! If not, then scratch your head and nod in vain and leave it as is.. unfortunately.

Having spent years in radio, you learn to be an audio gymnast of sorts. And in radio, it's MP3's galore!!!!

Goodluck.. with whatever you end updoing.

Ciao'
FD

[jayfrigo]

Originally Posted by Edward_Vinatea

Yeah, I guess the reason is you convert from to 24 to 16 first then you make the mp3 copy. I am not sure why this is the recommendation, I haven't paid attention to that as i usually rip from master CDs ---

Bob's point was referring to something that has already been mp3, being turned into mp3 again. Perceptual coders of this ilk, including things like AC-3 and ATRAC, are designed to throw out data for parts of the signal that will be masked and therefore won't be missed by the casual listener in the typical consumer environment. However, if you take the resulting uncompressed PCM stream and data-compress it again, the critical decisions the original coder made become painfully obvious.

Double-encoded mp3s sound bad as the fragile perceptual coding falls apart upon being presented previously coded material. Dolby E was made in part to address this problem for the digital television broadcast chain since multiple encode/decode passes may be unavoidable during the many links in the chain from source to local affiliates.

[Bob Olhsson]

At least it's a great form of copy protection!

[Edward_Vinatea]

Originally Posted by jayfrigo

Bob's point was referring to something that has already been mp3, being turned into mp3 again. Perceptual coders of this ilk, including things like AC-3 and ATRAC, are designed to throw out data for parts of the signal that will be masked and therefore won't be missed by the casual listener in the typical consumer environment. However, if you take the resulting uncompressed PCM stream and data-compress it again, the critical decisions the original coder made become painfully obvious.

Double-encoded mp3s sound bad as the fragile perceptual coding falls apart upon being presented previously coded material. Dolby E was made in part to address this problem for the digital television broadcast chain since multiple encode/decode passes may be unavoidable during the many links in the chain from source to local affiliates.

Thanks for that interesting info jayfrigo , I haven't really dealt with that reality which I am sure has been documented many times over. I've also haven't paid too much attention to all the subtleties of mp3 sound delivery. I am assuming we are talking about a lossy compression aspect ratio of 4:1 or better. Although I receive several mp3 samples to master every week , what I return to the customer clearly demonstrates the advantages of mastering even a mp3 file. I don't accept mp3 at or less than 128Kbps. I am adamant in accepting mp3 as source material period . It is only the last recourse. Having said all that, what I meant on my previous post, I was referring to (or adding to the discussion) the practice of converting from 24 bit to 16 bit prior to making a mp3 copy ----

Regards,