Label Mastering Engineers.. Which Limiter?

[krs]

I think this is a pretty competitive field, and you won't find too many willing to reveal their hard earned trade secrets online

(Though I have to say I doubt very much there is anything cookie cutter about high end mastering).

My two (likely ignorant) cents.

[bpatural]

The last two times I was in a top end mastering house the engineers used a hardware L2. One guy used a custom built eq and a digital deesser as well whereas the other guy used a manley compressor and a sontec before the L2... I've tried the hardware L2 and it sounds the same to my ears as the software one, but i still can't get the same results as these guys...my guess is that having a $5000 and up eq and knowing how to use it in a tuned room does wonders.
-brian

[Analog]

Which "top" mastering house with which engineer? I've been to a lot of "top" mastering houses, however, their results aren't likely what you'd get from a guy like Ted Jensen. Anyone know what his last link in the chain was? I'm not trying to think if I find out I'll be like Ted, but it would definitely be an interesting thing to know.

[Jack the Bear]

These days I'm using less and less L2. I'm surprised that it would crap out after 3db of GR. As far as TJ is concerned, well you just have to put it down to his vast experience.

He's a real one of a kind.

Cheers,

[Jules]

There are all sorts of digital peak limiters out there that these mastering cats can use last in the chain to squeeze a few DB out of a mix... and many of them never usually turn up in recording studios so remain relatively unknown to us recording engineers..

Lexicon made one, Junger make one, I think Sony made one and there will be more out there..

I always liked the look of one of these..

http://www.junger-audio.com/website/...ics_frame.html

I have had em used on some of my mixes in the past

[syra]

The do use the L2 (or the SPL oldie) but last time I was mastering sm professionally the reduction was 1db, not 3db.

Btw, the L3 doesn't compare to either the L2 or L1...it actually sounds good.

[Lagerfeldt]

I also find the L2 rather unusable.

I often resort to clipping the A/D, which is far hotter and less mushy than the L2.

However, it only works on some kinds of music than can endure the clipping process without sounding too distorted.

I am indeed searching hard for a top analog limiter to put in my mastering chain. This way I can (hopefully) get the best of both worlds, with less digital clipping.

Gyratec X vari mu compressor -> modified SSL compressor -> analog limiter -> A/D clipping.

[TheSweetener]

The mastering studio I usually give my mixes to uses the multiband comp + brickwalllimiter of the TC M6000. I already thought about buying a Powercore just for having this software. I don't find the L2 too bad, but it really kills your snaresound (like the UA Precision limiter does). The TC limiter does this less.

[Riccardo]

There is another stuf out there apart from L2s and TC6000.
Jules already mentioned the Junger and of course the SPL as well as modified Aphexs.
Ludness is in the mix (if properly done...that is mixed....obviously).
If not eq tweaks can make it sound louder than just limiting.
The L2 is not fantastic but it doesn't sound too bad if you hit it right (and use moderate settings of course!).

Now what happened to the rumour that Zelinsky was working on a digital limiter?

still vaporware?

Maybe Brad Lunde knows something about it?

[dave-G]

Originally Posted by Riccardo

Now what happened to the rumour that Zelinsky was working on a digital limiter?

I think you've got your product designers mixed up..

Zelinsky is a fictional inventor, played by actor Rick Moranis in "Honey I Shrunk The Kids"

Perhaps you mean Zelniker, Glenn of Z-Systems?



-dave

[Riccardo]

Originally Posted by dave-G

I think you've got your product designers mixed up..

Zelinsky is a fictional inventor, played by actor Rick Moranis in "Honey I Shrunk The Kids"

Perhaps you mean Zelniker, Glenn of Z-Systems?



-dave

sorry!....and thanks.....yes...less caffeine...more ...

[Jamz]

Originally Posted by Analog

I know many of the top mastering engineers (and I mean like the huge biggies like Ted Jensen, Howie Weinberg, Tom Baker, Joe Gastwirt, Bob Ludwig, etc.) overload their analog gear and use very little actual "peak limiting".

However, when I master through my little mastering chain (avalon eq and modified SSL comp) and then record back hot to the workstation, I still find that even though the mix now only needs about 3 db of peak limiting, the L2 still sounds like crap. I use the Timeworks limiter which usually STOMPS over the L2.. I mean the L2 kills my snare and impact with only 3db where the Timeworks seems to enhace it. But I doubt any of the mastering engineers above use a Timeworks DX plugin, so I'm curious, what do these guys use for that final few db? Tell me Tom Baker who did a fabulous job on the Alterbridge CD, or Howie Weinberg who was amazing on Deftones White Pony, tell me these guys aren't using the hardware L2... It would shock me.

Well, you'd better have a seat and take a pill....the L2 (including the plug in) is used in top mastering houses. Shouldn't shock anyone. It's just another tool to be used. Today's "in" sound is extreme peak limiting. If you want to remain competitive it's hard to dismiss the L2 or the L3.
I've not had the pleasure of working specifically with Ted Jensen but we are working with another senior engineer under the same roof. The L2 was used globally after each song was individually "touched" and loaded into the computer.
These guys were considered excellent mastering engineers before the L2 was around and are still considered the best. I believe their talent has less to do with the tools and more to do with their ears, experience and knowledge of when and how to use their tools. Much the same as any gifted musician.
When the L2 (much like Auto Tune) was initially released it was someone's secret black box that many if not all wanted to know about. Now everyone owns it, uses it and or abuses it. Time to trash it because it's become common place. It's time to look for another secret black box. Waves released the L1 somewhere back in the mid 90's. I thought it was a must have then just as I feel the L2, L3 are a must have today.
I'm as interested as the next guy in knowing what talented people are using but I'm also convinced that what separates the above list of engineers from myself cannot be bought at my favorite pro audio store.

[Julien Apruzzese]

Originally Posted by Lagerfeldt

I also find the L2 rather unusable.

I often resort to clipping the A/D, which is far hotter and less mushy than the L2.

However, it only works on some kinds of music than can endure the clipping process without sounding too distorted.

I am indeed searching hard for a top analog limiter to put in my mastering chain. This way I can (hopefully) get the best of both worlds, with less digital clipping.

Gyratec X vari mu compressor -> modified SSL compressor -> analog limiter -> A/D clipping.

Hi Lagerfeldt,
There is one tip i often use in order to build an analog limiter : Try to send your master through the new UA 2-1176 with the 15 kOhms select, put it on offline ( with the ratio to 1 ) and, with a master with max peaks at -3 dBFS, start with this setting : input=6 and output=5.
Regards.

[Jules]

hmmmmmm......

I see the hardware L2 is listed as 'discontinued' on Waves' site

http://www.waves.com/content.asp?id=173

is that old news?

[Jamz]

Originally Posted by Jules

hmmmmmm......

I see the hardware L2 is listed as 'discontinued' on Waves' site

http://www.waves.com/content.asp?id=173

is that old news?

Might make sense...L3 hardware with updated convertors possibly?

[Jules]

I will keep my eye open for it at the Barcelona AES next month!

[84K]

Originally Posted by Jules

hmmmmmm......

I see the hardware L2 is listed as 'discontinued' on Waves' site

http://www.waves.com/content.asp?id=173

is that old news?

Well, They just released a new box with the L2 in it, the MaxxBCL. The new box also has their Renn Compressor... It is actually Wave's newest product. Featuring the L2 Link:

http://www.waves.com/content.asp?id=1600>


Who cares who uses what? There are mulitple ways to skin a cat. I find the Waves mastering plugins are the most impressive thing in the digital world. You can make albums louder and more in-your-face with it. That is just called evolution.

[Brad Blackwood]

There's no one answer - each project requires a different approach to get the level the client desires. Regardless, the 'distributed load' approach seems to be the most effective...

[7rojo7]

Yes
Ilike the design of 2254s which had a limiter side chain from the output of the compressor which I can emulate with a MC2000 followed by IMPACT

[Lagerfeldt]

Originally Posted by julien_a

Hi Lagerfeldt,
There is one tip i often use in order to build an analog limiter : Try to send your master through the new UA 2-1176 with the 15 kOhms select, put it on offline ( with the ratio to 1 ) and, with a master with max peaks at -3 dBFS, start with this setting : input=6 and output=5.
Regards.

But with a ratio of 1:1 there's no limiting? Instead you are merely clipping it internally or what?

[Julien Apruzzese]

Originally Posted by Lagerfeldt

But with a ratio of 1:1 there's no limiting? Instead you are merely clipping it internally or what?

The fact to use this technique through the UA is known under the name of "analog transfert". In the ratio 1:1, the gear act like an line amplifier. Above one certain threshold, you can increase the input while the ouput peaks don't increase ( like a L2 Limiter ). After, you adjust the output with its trim. You add some distortion, in fact you have to be careful. Finally, you have an analog limiter like an apogee soft limit and not like a limiter with attack and release setups.
Regards,
Julien.

[lucey]

I dont think there are too many MEs using equipment substantially different from what's generally available. A modded 'this' or a custom 'that' is still no Silver Bullet.

It's more a matter of combinations and subtleties based on style and desired result.


Any ME would be far less effective with a chain whose subtleties and combinations were unfamiliar, no matter how special it may seem in the rack.

Know Thy Gear ... the 11th Commandment.

[Analog]

I kinda answered my own question by merely experimenting. I had always pushed my analog gear but today I tried to really really push it, I kept driving the A/D till it sounded loud but still really good, tons of kick punch and snare punch.. and then I realized that a simple 1 db of L2 or Timeworks did the trick fine. I also read in the archives about some of the big guys not even using peak limiters and just driving the db technology (or lavry) A/D 6db!! So I went out and borrowed a buddies Lavry and drove it hard, and sure enough, it sounded very much like I just raised a volume knob on the mix. Getting the same loudness with the L2 seemed like I raised the volume but then turned all the drums down and mushed up the bass.

One thing I will say is the SSL comp is a little tough as a mastering compressor because its hard to not get the kick to pump. Taking more then 1 db off at 2:1 is too much. Not trying to topic change but anyone recommend a cool mastering compressor to try that either has a more transparent sound or even a hip pass filter option in the detection circuit? Vari Mu? Pendulum? Buzz Audio?

[lucey]

Originally Posted by Analog

One thing I will say is the SSL comp is a little tough as a mastering compressor because its hard to not get the kick to pump. Taking more then 1 db off at 2:1 is too much. Not trying to topic change but anyone recommend a cool mastering compressor to try that either has a more transparent sound or even a hip pass filter option in the detection circuit? Vari Mu? Pendulum? Buzz Audio?

STC-8 can be sidechained...

Requisite L2M has a knob for it...

[Lagerfeldt]

Originally Posted by Analog

One thing I will say is the SSL comp is a little tough as a mastering compressor because its hard to not get the kick to pump. Taking more then 1 db off at 2:1 is too much. Not trying to topic change but anyone recommend a cool mastering compressor to try that either has a more transparent sound or even a hip pass filter option in the detection circuit? Vari Mu? Pendulum? Buzz Audio?

I have a 6dB/Octave sidechain @ 80Hz in my SSL comp to avoid (most of) the pumping. Going thru the Vari Mu first, and combined with the 80Hz sidechain it's easier to get an even signal with the SSL.

[Lagerfeldt]

Originally Posted by julien_a

The fact to use this technique through the UA is known under the name of "analog transfert". In the ratio 1:1, the gear act like an line amplifier. Above one certain threshold, you can increase the input while the ouput peaks don't increase ( like a L2 Limiter ). After, you adjust the output with its trim. You add some distortion, in fact you have to be careful. Finally, you have an analog limiter like an apogee soft limit and not like a limiter with attack and release setups.
Regards,
Julien.

Ok, that's what I was guessing. However, the distortion would bother me in this scenario since I'm also going to have some distortion at the A/D clipping stage, so I'm really just looking for an L2/L3 analog alternative for mastering?

[thethrillfactor]

Originally Posted by Lagerfeldt

Ok, that's what I was guessing. However, the distortion would bother me in this scenario since I'm also going to have some distortion at the A/D clipping stage, so I'm really just looking for an L2/L3 analog alternative for mastering?

The secret to the use of the L2/L3 i s instead of doing -5db of reduction on one L2 spread little amounts amongst (3) different L2's.

You get cleaner and louder sound this way.

By the way the L3 sounds so much better than the L2.

Especially at the heavier settings.

[Lagerfeldt]

I haven't actually tried what you suggest. But I find the L2 doesn't react well to previously digital limited signals, so applying 3 L2's in a row initially sounds weird to me. But I guess I'll try it out. Normally anything above 2-3dB of L2 sounds totally squashed.

I just recently got the L3 for OSX but I'm using OS9 (and L2) for yet another week before permanently switching to OSX (and L3 UltraMaximizer).

[bpatural]

so, i was just at oceanway today and the mastering engineer was using an L2 for the limiter hitting with about 7-8 db peaks. the signal was going through either the pendulum variable mu or opto compressor depending on the song hitting maybe a 1/4 of a db with a 1.5:1 ratio... and also through the custom oceanway eq which was a passive design the size of a small mixing desk and adding quite a bit of 16hz and 96khz to most songs as well as some suble 300-600, 3k-5k cutting/boosting depending on the song. also noticed he was doing some polarity flips on the entire signal. the L2 was kind of just on the whole time with arc on and maybe the level to it was changed slightly for a couple songs....most of the day was spent choosing mixes, and eqing. anyway... the real difference seemed to be switching back and forth between tracks and tweaking the eq with slight variations before hitting the L2...no real tricks, just a whole lot of listening.
-brian