Any recommend a VERY transparent peak limiter to put in front of a lavry gold AD?

[tonyespinoza]

in other words, i'd like to use the +3 or +6 saturation of the lavry, so i need something analog that will help round those peaks out just a little. prefer no tone below the threshold, but for instance, i found the Cranesong STC-8 had more tone than i was looking for. i've run across the NTP's (120') and the Pendulum but have my doubts about their transparency. tonally, assuming nothing is transparent, i need a very tight bottom all the way down and no mid-range harshness as the lavry can get a bit nasal when pushed anyway. thanks for sharing any experience!

(damn, sux that i can't edit the title of the post - duh!)

[Lagerfeldt]

The most transparent limiter is a digital one. Any way you can use that in your chain or do you really need an analog limiter?

One of the most transparent limiters is the Flux Pure Limiter. Actually the Sonnox Oxford can be too, but a lot of people don't set it the right way and dynamic harmonic distortion is on by default.

Flux:: sound and picture development

[tonyespinoza]

i have the roger nichols stuff and if you find the sweet spot have been able to get it to sound good.

i'm only looking for 1 maybe 1.7 db of help here.

but sadly, no - i need it to be an analog solution.

either that or i need some big guys to go over to the record label and beat the shit out of the A&R guys who want this shot so fracking loud. :-)

[lucey]

Transparency in limiting is about small moves and the chain as a whole, more than the single units. So having said that, the PL-2 with an eq to adjust would be my choice. Have you used it?

Are these tests mixes for A+R, or are you doing the mastering for your mixing clients?

[ed littman]

I find that the lavry saturation has quite a bit of color. with that said, I'm not sure how a limiter of any kind will do what your looking to do if it's going to be fed to the saturation of that ADC & boosted up to 6db. Why not use the saturation only(if the sound works for your track) & clip digitally when capturing. You can either capture at 24 bits than after put a limiter when dithering to control the final ceiling ,or do the above at 16 bits while capturing. this form of clipping is far greater transparent than any limiter...IMO.
Ed

Originally Posted by tonyespinoza

in other words, i'd like to use the +3 or +6 saturation of the lavry, so i need something analog that will help round those peaks out just a little. prefer no tone below the threshold, but for instance, i found the Cranesong STC-8 had more tone than i was looking for. i've run across the NTP's (120') and the Pendulum but have my doubts about their transparency. tonally, assuming nothing is transparent, i need a very tight bottom all the way down and no mid-range harshness as the lavry can get a bit nasal when pushed anyway. thanks for sharing any experience!

(damn, sux that i can't edit the title of the post - duh!)

[tonyespinoza]

I find that the lavry saturation has quite a bit of color. with that said, I'm not sure how a limiter of any kind will do what your looking to do if it's going to be fed to the saturation of that ADC & boosted up to 6db. Why not use the saturation only(if the sound works for your track) & clip digitally when capturing. You can either capture at 24 bits than after put a limiter when dithering to control the final ceiling ,or do the above at 16 bits while capturing. this form of clipping is far greater transparent than any limiter...IMO.
Ed

yes - the lavry saturation has much color. but it's a color i know how to mix with and work against.

i'm a mixer, but have been forced to do mastering for indie clients to avoid having my stuff sent to the local buddy of the a&r guy to be butchered by an L2 on stun.

this is why i bought the lavry in the first place (having mastered with the folk in LA a bunch).

i've also found that getting mixes approved either requires L3, inflator, or a pseudo master print to get level. i learned this the hard way when working with New Order a few years ago (they had A&R folks on several continents). folks like nigel godrich use L2, but i just can't go there!

[tonyespinoza]

so how does the 16bit clipping work? i set the Lavry to 16 bits and print into a 24 bit file, or print to a separate device at 16 bits? feel free to refer me to a search or other posts if this has been well-covered. i'm not versed in transparent clipping technique.

who knew!!

ps: i really have my doubts about going with the pendulum.

pps: i generally don't mix with a bus compressor. occasionally i'll use a tubetech multiband smc2b, but it has soo much glue that it sometimes isn't right for the track.

[Andy Krehm]

Originally Posted by tonyespinoza

ps: i really have my doubts about going with the pendulum.....

I use the Pendulum PL-2 in front of the Lavry Gold ADC for mastering almost every day. It is very transparent but is used along with other units as I never want to use any one thing to do all the work.

The reason I got it in to try was that before I got Gold I was using an Apogee with soft limit, which I found useful, and wanted to have the same type of device before the ADC. I discovered that the Apogee soft limit was an analog device whereas all the other limiters in converters are digital. The PL-2 is much, much better and more transparent than the Apogee Soft Limit.

As always, try to get a demo unit in your studio first to make sure it does what you want.

As for the Lavry Gold Soft Sat., I find it very coloured and heavy handed for my mastering work so don't use it much but you are using it for mixing so probably have a different approach.

[ed littman]

Originally Posted by tonyespinoza

so how does the 16bit clipping work? i set the Lavry to 16 bits and print into a 24 bit file, or print to a separate device at 16 bits? feel free to refer me to a search or other posts if this has been well-covered. i'm not versed in transparent clipping technique.

who knew!!

ps: i really have my doubts about going with the pendulum.

pps: i generally don't mix with a bus compressor. occasionally i'll use a tubetech multiband smc2b, but it has soo much glue that it sometimes isn't right for the track.

What i do is...
use to instances of wavelab & two independent sound cards. 1 for playing the original mix & 2 for capturing after the analog chain.
I alway keep my lavry set to 24 bits, but when I want to capture in 16 I'll just set the record dialog in WL to 16/44.1. that, in addition to using the l2 at 0.0 threashold & -0.1 for the out ceiling...no dither needed...record.
I'm using the asio audio input or live input so I can use the master fader to control the recording level. This is also were the digital clipping happens.
I'm sure this set up can be adapted for most any other platform.
Ed

[MattGray]

Originally Posted by ed littman

I alway keep my lavry set to 24 bits, but when I want to capture in 16 I'll just set the record dialog in WL to 16/44.1. that, in addition to using the l2 at 0.0 threashold & -0.1 for the out ceiling...no dither needed...record.

Hey Ed, can you explain why dither wouldn't be needed in this scenario? If the Lavry is capturing at 24bits & you're recording into wavelab at 16bit wouldn't that effectively be truncation?

I'm using the asio audio input or live input so I can use the master fader to control the recording level. This is also were the digital clipping happens.

Are you talking about the master fader in Wavelab? Again if you're raising the gain in Wavelab at 16bits, it would need re-dithering at this point (all internal DSP including a gain change would be calculated at 32bit float) unless I'm mistaken. It would make more sense to capture into Wavelab at 24bit 44.1kHz with your technique, so it could be dithered at the end. Also if you raise up the gain on the MF in Wavelab to digitally clip does that mean you're printing a file that peaks at 0.0dbfs? or are you lowering by 0.3 some place after the gain change?

Matt

[ed littman]

Originally Posted by MattGray

Hey Ed, can you explain why dither wouldn't be needed in this scenario? If the Lavry is capturing at 24bits & you're recording into wavelab at 16bit wouldn't that effectively be truncation?



Are you talking about the master fader in Wavelab? Again if you're raising the gain in Wavelab at 16bits, it would need re-dithering at this point (all internal DSP including a gain change would be calculated at 32bit float) unless I'm mistaken. It would make more sense to capture into Wavelab at 24bit 44.1kHz with your technique, so it could be dithered at the end. Also if you raise up the gain on the MF in Wavelab to digitally clip does that mean you're printing a file that peaks at 0.0dbfs? or are you lowering by 0.3 some place after the gain change?

Matt

yes, i usually capture 24 bits & yes, use the master fader for clipping. the 24bit recorded file ends up hitting 0.0db. If I set the record dialog to 32bit this would not work as the full dynamic range would still be intact. I use the over shoot of the faders as a 'Limiter" per say, maybe a"clipper" is a better term. I do realize that I'm truncating from 32bit to 24 bit. this sounds more transparent to me than using dither to 24 bits. doing a null test between the two is telling...
I then apply a limiter(to control the output ceiling)& dither to 16 bits. That's the norm for me.

You are correct in saying that if capturing at 16 bits either set the ADC to 16 bits, or if using the above technique put a limiter at 16 bits & lower the output ceiling at the end of the capture chain.

Ed

[djwaudio]

Check out the Maselec MPL-2. Good limiting for certain genres, also the de-esser is useful.

[WBM]

Originally Posted by tonyespinoza

yes - the lavry saturation has much color. but it's a color i know how to mix with and work against.

i'm a mixer, but have been forced to do mastering for indie clients to avoid having my stuff sent to the local buddy of the a&r guy to be butchered by an L2 on stun.

this is why i bought the lavry in the first place (having mastered with the folk in LA a bunch).

i've also found that getting mixes approved either requires L3, inflator, or a pseudo master print to get level. i learned this the hard way when working with New Order a few years ago (they had A&R folks on several continents). folks like nigel godrich use L2, but i just can't go there!

Mr Tony Espinoza,

I would leave the mastering to someone who it's doing just that for leaving with the right room and the right monitoring, buy the lavry gold you think it's mean to be available to do mastering, it's not like that plus used it at 6 db of saturation it's way to much of coloration try to add a level by stations a clean limiter before the Lavry will help.
Set it at 3 sat to don't have that much of coloration plus the Lavry it's not the perfect converter to all kind of music, may be nu-metal or rock but the heed or little bit or UV-22 make things sound different for other kind of music please learn to do one job right and leave the others to the ME pro's.(not me)

[thethrillfactor]

Originally Posted by WBM

Mr Tony Espinoza,

I would leave the mastering to someone who it's doing just that for leaving with the right room with the right monitoring and buy the lavry gold you think it's mean to be available to do mastering not it's not like that plus used it at 6 db of saturation it's way to much of coloration try to add a level by stations a clean limiter before the lavry will help and set it at 3 sat to don't have that much of coloration plus the lavry it's not the perfect converter to all kind of music may be nu-metal or rock but the heed or little bit or UV-22 make things sound different for other kind of music please learn to do one job right and leave the others to the pro's.

Wow!!!

What a mouth full.

Not even one breath taken.

Dude you need to read here:

Run-on sentence - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[peeder]

Originally Posted by WBM

Mr Tony Espinoza,

I would leave the mastering to someone who it's doing just that for leaving with the right room with the right monitoring and buy the lavry gold you think it's mean to be available to do mastering not it's not like that plus used it at 6 db of saturation it's way to much of coloration try to add a level by stations a clean limiter before the lavry will help and set it at 3 sat to don't have that much of coloration plus the lavry it's not the perfect converter to all kind of music may be nu-metal or rock but the heed or little bit or UV-22 make things sound different for other kind of music please learn to do one job right and leave the others to the pro's.

(And I know I'm not sposta say this, but try a Distressor pair set 20:1 with HPF on the sidechain and no distortion setting. Everybody now, with feeling: make this guy shut up! )

(BTW I remember meeting you Tony at the Boston Newton launch )

[nickynicknick]

Originally Posted by WBM

Mr Tony Espinoza,

I would leave the mastering to someone who it's doing just that for leaving with the right room with the right monitoring and buy the lavry gold you think it's mean to be available to do mastering not it's not like that plus used it at 6 db of saturation it's way to much of coloration try to add a level by stations a clean limiter before the lavry will help and set it at 3 sat to don't have that much of coloration plus the lavry it's not the perfect converter to all kind of music may be nu-metal or rock but the heed or little bit or UV-22 make things sound different for other kind of music please learn to do one job right and leave the others to the pro's.

Can't help but find it interesting that Tony (who seems like a high end guy) feels it necessary to take matters into his own hands...


....although the above is a run on sentence, I agree with the part about the Lavry not being for everything... can I suggest that maybe you should use two stages of analog limiting first eq either in between or after, don't clip the converter, then use two or three nice limiter plugs with eq inserted where necessary...1db at every stage (max) should get you there....any more and you'll be in trouble......or........just use ( as suggested here) Plug limiters. Stack about 8,ease the threshold one by one, insert some eq where you feel that there is some build up and Bob's your uncle...or

forget about good limiting and just slam the Lavry and call it a day...but if you don't like what an L2 does , I would not suggest clipping a converter...it's the easy way...if it's just for A&R and not final mastering take the easy way 'cause that's what they probably want to hear...if you want it to sound great, send it to someone who knows how to master without clipping a converter. Good Luck. This is a lost craft.

Nick

[tonyespinoza]

you guys are killing me!!! :-)

first of all, peeder: how the hell did you recognize my name from 15 years ago at the Newton launch -- or did you read something that made you put 2 and 2 together... PM me with some details. man, i was just a spring chicken software nerd when i worked on that thing. what a mess.

dr. WBM (Weapons of Bad Mastering?). i'm entirely familiar with the elitist golden-eared mastering engineer bullshit. but to be honest having mastered with brian, emily, dave, bernie, etc. i never run into it. it's not until the next tier down (yes, the $50 an hour tier that you live in) that i run into it. which is my problem. i like to work with poor indie bands that make great art. the small labels will pay just about as much as you charge to master a record and frankly most of you guys just don't get the target practice you need with pop to get it to sound like what we're looking for. it takes huge resources to get a room and rig to sound better than what some of us have to mix with these days. sorry -- you asked for it.

yeah - i've been hitting the lavrys pretty hard to get "listen" mixes for approval. i tried a shoot out using inflator and L2 and found i liked the clipped mixes better (sad). when i posted, i was just hoping someone would say, "oh yeah, just throw this in front" -- but i realize now there is no easy answer. or rather, the answer was even easier than that... (just get over the guilt and print...)

thanks mastering folk.

[philosi]

The PL-2 is great, but I wouldn't slam it too hard... Much more transparent than the Lavry Blue limiting.

[Adam Dempsey]

Originally Posted by tonyespinoza

prefer no tone below the threshold, but for instance, i found the Cranesong STC-8 had more tone than i was looking for.

That's unusual. In "Hara" mode? Not that I'd use its limiter section but it's a very flexible compressor.

[Yann Dub]

I will prefer a varimu compressor , the fairman for example

[E-Irizarry]

PSP Xenon might do the doobie. Give it a whirl.
Or Crysonic Spectra'PHY (not the LE edition!).