Mixing before mastering

[Digital Network]

Hello,

Can you confirm this information : is it right that the level must be near -3DB on the master channel before sending the song to the mastering ing (to keep the headroom free) ?

Cheers,
Vincent

[Blue Bear Sound]

Definitely not true.... ME's will take has much headroom in your mix as you care to give.

In broad terms, more headroom in your mix means less audio butchery on your part!

[twwalsh]

Originally Posted by Blue Bear Sound

Definitely not true.... ME's will take has much headroom in your mix as you care to give.

In broad terms, more headroom in your mix means less audio butchery on your part!

that's not true. in the digital world, 1 db of headroom is just as good as 8 db of headroom.

what we discourage against is digitally limiting your mixes or excessively compressing the 2 bus.

[Blue Bear Sound]

Originally Posted by twwalsh

what we discourage against is digitally limiting your mixes or excessively compressing the 2 bus.

That was my point...........

[twwalsh]

Originally Posted by Blue Bear Sound

That was my point...........

your point was about headroom. different issue...

headroom and gain reduction are two different things.

[Blue Bear Sound]

Originally Posted by twwalsh

your point was about headroom. different issue...

headroom and gain reduction are two different things.

*sigh*

Originally Posted by Blue Bear Sound

In broad terms, more headroom in your mix means less audio butchery on your part!

ie, DON'T ADD LIMITING OR OTHER EXCESSIVE COMPRESSION TO RAISE OVERALL LEVELS PRIOR TO MASTERING........

Better, skippy?

[brethes]

Originally Posted by Digital Network

Hello,

Can you confirm this information : is it right that the level must be near -3DB on the master channel before sending the song to the mastering ing (to keep the headroom free) ?

Cheers,
Vincent

Most mastering engineers will recommend to leave AT LEAST 3dbs of headroom. This is not an exact requirement, but a rough guide of what minimum headroom you should leave in order to avoid unnecessary clipping (ie: distortion). It can certainly be lower, particularly if the mixes are 24 bit. Printing mixes higher than -3db could involve "hidden" clipping due to intersample peaks).

At the end of the day, if the mixes sound good to you and you haven't tried to make them sound as loud as commercially mastered releases, MEs will be able to cope with them even if the "recommended" headroom is not there. But bear in mind that any distortion already present in the mix due to clipping will probably be magnified through the mastering process so it is best to play safe and not overload your channels, plugins or master bus.

BTW: Turning down by 3db a squashed/clipped mix after it's be printed is NOT the solution.

[twwalsh]

Originally Posted by Blue Bear Sound

*sigh*


ie, DON'T ADD LIMITING OR OTHER EXCESSIVE COMPRESSION TO RAISE OVERALL LEVELS PRIOR TO MASTERING........

Better, skippy?

this is a technical forum. these distinctions matter.

[Blue Bear Sound]

Originally Posted by twwalsh

this is a technical forum. these distinctions matter.

I can see that you and I are going to have a hard time getting along here eh, skippy...

[twwalsh]

Originally Posted by Blue Bear Sound

I can see that you and I are going to have a hard time getting along here eh, skippy...

i doubt it.

[Bob Olhsson]

I think the most important reason to use plenty of headroom is so that you won't be compensating in your mix for the sound of your particular DAC being stressed.

A whole lot of what we do in mastering is compensate for monitoring problems.

[twwalsh]

Originally Posted by Bob Olhsson

I think the most important reason to use plenty of headroom is so that you won't be compensating in your mix for the sound of your particular DAC being stressed.

A whole lot of what we do in mastering is compensate for monitoring problems.

that sounds right. but as long as there's no clipping, and minimal inter-sample clipping, headroom isn't really much of an issue.

[Andy Krehm]

Originally Posted by Bob Olhsson

...A whole lot of what we do in mastering is compensate for monitoring problems.

That is a very profound statement! It manifests as a lead vocal that is too loud/too soft, a kick that is too loud/too soft, or any other instrument or area of the frequency spectrum that is out of balance.

These imbalances have to be addressed before any other mastering procedures are done and Bob is right, this can sometimes be a big part of the mastering gig.

Some mix engineers are working in very sub-standard environments. If your room is too boomy, you will lower the bottom more than you need to. If your room tends to absorb the lower bass and sub frequencies, you will be adding bass to compensate.

The only way around this is to have a few different places to check your mixes plus feedback from a good mastering engineer. Assuming one has the "ear" for mixing, once you learn how your room works, you will learn how to produce balanced mixes.

Only trouble is, if your room sucks it will never be pleasant to work in and will be difficult to satisfy anyone attending the mix session!

[Greg Reierson]

Originally Posted by Bob Olhsson

A whole lot of what we do in mastering is compensate for monitoring problems.

Bob's wisdom / word count ratio is amazing...


GR

[Bob Olhsson]

Originally Posted by twwalsh

that sounds right. but as long as there's no clipping, and minimal inter-sample clipping, headroom isn't really much of an issue.

I beg to differ! Lots of converters start sounding really thin as you approach the top. My guess is that this is because of inadequate power supplies but the point is that many DACs have an obvious sweet spot that is considerably below clipping. All you need to do is listen.

[RCM - Ronan]

I always sum it up this way: as you start getting closer to 0dBfs you start to increase the potential for problems, and the serious downsides to working with conservative levels at 24bit are almost non-existent.

[twwalsh]

Originally Posted by Bob Olhsson

I beg to differ! Lots of converters start sounding really thin as you approach the top. My guess is that this is because of inadequate power supplies but the point is that many DACs have an obvious sweet spot that is considerably below clipping. All you need to do is listen.

you're right.

i never push my DAC that hard. i set the master fader in my DAW at -10dB for monitoring, so i avoid that issue. i suppose i'm incorrect in assuming that others do this.

[Silver Sonya]

Originally Posted by Bob Olhsson

A whole lot of what we do in mastering is compensate for monitoring problems.

Amen, brother! Sing it!

- c