Radio Processing Reference?

[DesertDawg]

Do any of you mastering guys have or use any kind of reference processing for what a song might sound like on the radio? In other words, let's say you're mastering a rock song or album - do you ever insert some additional compression after that stage & lop off some highs & lo's to emulate what a typical rock radio station's FM signal chain might do to the song in question?

If so, what do you use & how do you normally set it up, in terms of typical dynamics & EQ, etc.?

[AroundTheClock]

I wouldn't even think about it. A great mastering (one with the digital meters not stuck at 0 dBfs all the song long, for example) will translate less worse on radio, for sure. Radio processing is often multi-band and hard to emulate. Radio is radio and is not very musical.

[Sunim Koria]

Originally Posted by DesertDawg

Do any of you mastering guys have or use any kind of reference processing for what a song might sound like on the radio? In other words, let's say you're mastering a rock song or album - do you ever insert some additional compression after that stage & lop off some highs & lo's to emulate what a typical rock radio station's FM signal chain might do to the song in question?

If so, what do you use & how do you normally set it up, in terms of typical dynamics & EQ, etc.?

You might want to check out Steinberg's Multiband Compressor plug-in as it has a fairly generic yet convincing 'FM Radio' preset. Regardless, a tonally well-balanced and appropriately dynamic master should translate well, even through the roughest of radio processing.

SK

[joeaudio]

Originally Posted by DesertDawg

Do any of you mastering guys have or use any kind of reference processing for what a song might sound like on the radio? In other words, let's say you're mastering a rock song or album - do you ever insert some additional compression after that stage & lop off some highs & lo's to emulate what a typical rock radio station's FM signal chain might do to the song in question?

If so, what do you use & how do you normally set it up, in terms of typical dynamics & EQ, etc.?

No. This would be an exercise in futility.

Joe

[Masterer]

Yeah, I was beta testing a broadcast limiter that had been modified for use as a mastering limiter. I didn't like it as a mastering limiter, mostly for ergonomic reasons, but using it to test various radio presets was very educational, and gave me some insight into the effects of typical broadcast limiting on the work that I sent to radio.

[Bob Olhsson]

We listened to one of those in series with another one set up for broadcast. It was a great education in how excessive mastering processing really screws up the sound of CDs on the air.

[joeaudio]

Originally Posted by Masterer

Yeah, I was beta testing a broadcast limiter that had been modified for use as a mastering limiter. I didn't like it as a mastering limiter, mostly for ergonomic reasons, but using it to test various radio presets was very educational, and gave me some insight into the effects of typical broadcast limiting on the work that I sent to radio.

But did it change the way you work?

Joe

[Masterer]

Originally Posted by joeaudio

But did it change the way you work?

Joe

Yeah, It gave me a very clear idea of what not to do.

[Masterer]

Originally Posted by Bob Olhsson

....It was a great education in how excessive mastering processing really screws up the sound of CDs on the air.

Exactly.

[joeaudio]

Originally Posted by Masterer

Yeah, It gave me a very clear idea of what not to do.

I don't know. I can't remember processing a track and stopping in the
middle and saying "wait a second, the processing at the radio station
is really going to make this sound bad."

Joe

[AroundTheClock]

I do not know how the situation is in the US but here in Belgium the point is just to be as loud as possible within the limit of the transmitter with absolutely no consideration for the plasticity of the sound itself.

Sadly, even the so-called "indie" station tries to compete with the most commercial ones.

I wonder how long will the classical music station resist to this FM loudness war ...

To me, they totally miss the point in educating the ears of the listeners, which should be one of their missions at least for the public national broadcasters.

I'm sorry if I'm not very clear, my English is not that good for sure.

[Masterer]

Originally Posted by joeaudio

I don't know. I can't remember processing a track and stopping in the
middle and saying "wait a second, the processing at the radio station
is really going to make this sound bad."

Joe

Anybody ever ask you for a "radio" version intended specifically to sound good on the radio? I get that pretty frequently. A fair amount of my work ends up on the radio so I've put a little bit of thought into it. I can explain and demonstrate to a client, in an intelligent manner, the how's and why's of what sounds good on the radio and what does not [to a greater degree than I'd been able to before the limiter experiment], and although it's not the entire picture, I found that to be a very valuable experience, and one that does not slow my decision making process down in the least.

... but whatever. YM as they say MV.

[joeaudio]

Originally Posted by Masterer

Anybody ever ask you for a "radio" version intended specifically to sound good on the radio? I get that pretty frequently. A fair amount of my work ends up on the radio so I've put a little bit of thought into it. I can explain and demonstrate to a client, in an intelligent manner, the how's and why's of what sounds good on the radio and what does not [to a greater degree than I'd been able to before the limiter experiment], and although it's not the entire picture, I found that to be a very valuable experience, and one that does not slow my decision making process down in the least.

... but whatever. YM as they say MV.

I have been asked for a radio version of a song and I must admit
I find the question a little perplexing. I have no control over
how broadcasters process
thier signal. You mentioned that the limter you checked out had several
settings, which one is the reference? It's like trying to EQ for the loudness
button. So, DesertDawg, I recommend that you do your thing on your familiar
system. After that it's out of your hands.

Joe

[Masterer]

Originally Posted by joeaudio

I have been asked for a radio version of a song and I must admit
I find the question a little perplexing. I have no control over
how broadcasters process
thier signal. You mentioned that the limter you checked out had several
settings, which one is the reference? It's like trying to EQ for the loudness
button. So, DesertDawg, I recommend that you do your thing on your familiar
system. After that it's out of your hands.

Joe

Perplexing?

If 8 million people in the NYC area had the same "loudness button" and they had the button in at all times, would you want to know what the button did to the signal?
I would.
You also have no control over the users playback system/listening environment/stereo or iPod or boombox or headphones or car stereo settings or club system EQ.
Right?

Right. The limiter had several presets and custom settings used by some major american radio stations. Like I said, I found experimenting with this popular broadcast limiter very educational.... but then I'm just a curious guy.

I'm really just trying to answer DesertDawg's original question, which went a little something like this:

"Do any of you mastering guys have or use any kind of reference processing for what a song might sound like on the radio? In other words, let's say you're mastering a rock song or album - do you ever insert some additional compression after that stage & lop off some highs & lo's to emulate what a typical rock radio station's FM signal chain might do to the song in question?"

That o.k. with you?

[Cellotron]

Originally Posted by Masterer

Yeah, I was beta testing a broadcast limiter that had been modified for use as a mastering limiter.

Chris -
Was this the Omnia you are talking about? or something else?

Best regards,
Steve Berson

[Masterer]

Originally Posted by Cellotron

Chris -
Was this the Omnia you are talking about? or something else?

Best regards,
Steve Berson

Yep. Interesting box.

[joeaudio]

Originally Posted by Masterer

Perplexing?

If 8 million people in the NYC area had the same "loudness button" and they had the button in at all times, would you want to know what the button did to the signal?
I would.
You also have no control over the users playback system/listening environment/stereo or iPod or boombox or headphones or car stereo settings or club system EQ.
Right?

Right. The limiter had several presets and custom settings used by some major american radio stations. Like I said, I found experimenting with this popular broadcast limiter very educational.... but then I'm just a curious guy.

I'm really just trying to answer DesertDawg's original question, which went a little something like this:

"Do any of you mastering guys have or use any kind of reference processing for what a song might sound like on the radio? In other words, let's say you're mastering a rock song or album - do you ever insert some additional compression after that stage & lop off some highs & lo's to emulate what a typical rock radio station's FM signal chain might do to the song in question?"

That o.k. with you?

Easy there cowboy. It's okay with me. Just a little back and forth discussion.
I'm not trying to impune your knowledge of mastering for the radio.
I'm glad the exposure to a broadcast limiter made you a better engineer
by showing you what not to do. I was also trying to answer the original question.
My answer was/is no, it's a waste of time.

Joe

[Radioman]

Originally Posted by DesertDawg

Do any of you mastering guys have or use any kind of reference processing for what a song might sound like on the radio? In other words, let's say you're mastering a rock song or album - do you ever insert some additional compression after that stage & lop off some highs & lo's to emulate what a typical rock radio station's FM signal chain might do to the song in question?

If so, what do you use & how do you normally set it up, in terms of typical dynamics & EQ, etc.?

If you want to emulate a FM broadcast multiband processing you can take a look to the internal audio path of a typical broadcast multiband audio processor like the Orban Optimod 8500
It's very important to consider the preemphasis equalization (75 or 50 uS) applied to the signal during TX because it raises (6 dB/octave) the HF level from 2-3 khz to 15 khz before the final compression and clipping.

You should try these SW too
Sound Solution XAP and 1.0

Sonos multiband series

[joeaudio]

The following is a quote from Orbans site
touting thier Optimod-FM 8500:

More than 20 excellent sounding, format specific factory presets get you started. You'll find all of your favorite 8400 version 3 factory presets, plus some new ones designed by Bob Orban and Greg Ogonowski to please any broadcaster. Although the factory presets are fully competent "out of the box," you can customize them with easy one-knob LESS-MORE control or with more than 60 advanced controls, whose versatility will satisfy even the most finicky on-air sound designer. If you have created custom presets for your 8400, you'll find that they import perfectly into the 8500, retaining your carefully crafted sound.

Now I'm going to figure out how to process a track to sound good
when it's going to run through this thing.

Impossible.

[Masterer]

Originally Posted by joeaudio

I'm not trying to impune your knowledge of mastering for the radio.
....

Of course you're not. That would just be ridiculous.

Lets' just say we have different experiences, which would explain our different answers to the question, and leave it at that. The original poster can decide for himself if any of this is interesting.... or not.

[joeaudio]

Originally Posted by Masterer

Of course you're not. That would just be ridiculous.

Lets' just say we have different experiences, which would explain our different answers to the question, and leave it at that. The original poster can decide for himself if any of this is interesting.... or not.

You're right. I suppose our place on this board is to share
our experience with others.
That's what we did.

Peace,

Joe

[NFL]

Chris,

Thanks for sharing.

And - although I guess you might want to keep most of it for yourself - maybe you could mention just a thing or two of the 'do-nots'?

I see from their homepage that there are some stations in Norway too, using that brand.

Kind regards,
Njal

Originally Posted by Masterer

Yeah, It gave me a very clear idea of what not to do.

[Radioman]

Originally Posted by NFL

maybe you could mention just a thing or two of the 'do-nots'?

Maybe the the white papers published into the Omnia Audio website could explain you some critical details related to the broadcast audio processing. Other white papers are published into the "About" and "Download" sections of the Orban website.

[joeaudio]

Originally Posted by NFL

Chris,

Thanks for sharing.

And - although I guess you might want to keep most of it for yourself - maybe you could mention just a thing or two of the 'do-nots'?

I see from their homepage that there are some stations in Norway too, using that brand.

Kind regards,
Njal

Oddly enough I've received complaints lately that some records that I've
mastered don't sound good on the radio. Please do share Chris

[joeaudio]

Masterer wrote: I can explain and demonstrate to a client, in an intelligent manner, the how's and why's of what sounds good on the radio and what does not


But not to us?

[Cellotron]

I got to say using an Omnia as a "radio reference" to me can be deceptive because, as one of the most expensive options on the market, it is not really that commonly used of a broadcast processor and there are tons and tons of variables that can be changed in its settings - so that even if a station is using an Omnia they might get completely different results than what you are hearing with the settings you might be using.

To me trying to get an idea of general radio processing will do on a master by using just one of the myriads of broadcast processors out there is simply trying to hit a moving target as every station tends to slightly customize its processor chain and their settings (and sometimes use a variety of settings across the day/week) in order to give their station a "signature" and to try and eke out more signal strength. So - it can be educational as it can indeed show how a broadcast processor might react to a hyper-clipped or hyper-limited track - but just like using a smaller band width monitors when mastering as a "consumer reference" it can sometimes be of limited value as there are so many variables that no one thing can really be considered a "reference."

Obviously OMMV concerning this!!

Best regards,
Steve Berson

[Masterer]

Originally Posted by joeaudio

Masterer wrote: I can explain and demonstrate to a client, in an intelligent manner, the how's and why's of what sounds good on the radio and what does not


But not to us?

Easy there Plug-In Boy.

Sometimes I get crushed under the amount of work that I am doing [like right now] and it's hard for me to find the time for posts that are longer than a few sentences. I'm sure you know what I mean, having worked in close proximity to busy mastering engineers in the past.

I'm starting to think your interest is less than sincere, and I don't want to get into a ******-fest, so I'll save my breath, but I'd be happy to respond to anyone that is really interested in my observations [un-scientific though they may be] via private message.

Originally Posted by joeaudio

Oddly enough I've received complaints lately that some records that I've
mastered don't sound good on the radio. Please do share Chris

That's unfortunate for your clients. Which records of yours are one the radio right now?
Maybe I'll give 'em a listen.

[Masterer]

Originally Posted by Cellotron

Obviously OMMV concerning this!!

Yes, Obviously.

It's just a small part of the picture. I think its probably more interesting to experiment with it than to speculate on it.

You may or may not discover some interesting things.
I found it interesting.

[DesertDawg]

Originally Posted by Masterer

but I'd be happy to respond to anyone that is really interested in my observations [un-scientific though they may be] via private message.

I'd be happy to be the recipient of said PM's... go for it if you get a chance! Interesting thread so far, though.

To the poster who suggested the Swineberg Multiband FM radio preset... I never even thought about that, but i'll give it a try right now & report back shortly!

To the poster who mentioned the Optimod - I'm familiar with that unit (to the extent that I know what it is, and does), and was actually thinking about searching around for a used one for this specific purpose (!), but thought I'd start the thread we're on simply to see if anyone was doing this sort of thing, and if they had a better reference point or plugin or whatever.

To Bob Ohlsson: when you tried your tests in this regard, did you you ever revisit this as a reference point on any masters you were working onjust as a checkpoint, like flipping to another set of monitors in mixdown - or did you not find it to be worthwhile, or that by doing so it might bias your decision-making?

[DesertDawg]

Originally Posted by DesertDawg

To the poster who suggested the Swineberg Multiband FM radio preset... I never even thought about that, but i'll give it a try right now & report back shortly!

OK, as promised, I'm reporting back, and the report is: HOLY CRAP!!! That was very close... very, very close to what I heard over the air on this particular song... perhaps a little bit more highs, but that could be slight variances between that preset & the actual radio station's processing, or it could be transmission-related, but as far as the dynamics go, that did sound almost exactly the same as what I heard & it also verified what I thought at the time might have been the problem (which was: too much low end in the 100hz & below range, causing some pumping in certain places).

Argh... now I need to figure out how to fix it in the future, while still preserving a good amount of lows.

And don't say: "Have someone else master it!" lol