Good clipping

[OberHeim-Kenobi]

Hello folks i have been working for years in audio (tracking and mixing) and i have studing mastering tech for a while .The thing is i'm starting to feel good with my masters since i'm putting in practice some new and old tricks, and usualy i'm getting decent stuff on a small projets i can't send to a ME. I usually play with conservative compression, parallel comp too, judicious use of EQs, MS tech, .........
The last stage almost always is clipping. And then i get the sound i want near to (good, no crazy loud) ) commercial bump. This is the pain moment for me. I became to obtain smooth sound with enough dynamic feel but the clipping stage is like to throw away all these good sound to get one o two db to bring up the sound . I learned to be no agresivve and sometimes clipping give me these loudness help with almost no harsh working a lot.
I usually clip a Avalon 747 a little and it clips lovely with no side effects. But the right thing to gain these 2 dbs is in the last step (IMO) and i thing is maybe on digital last step (before dither)

I don't spec for miracles here but i heard Crane Song HEDD can give you these 2 db of judicious clip loudness. You can splash the converters and expect for a sound not so 'clipped'...IS IT?

What do you mean?

Do you use analog for the last clipping thing or these HEDD?

I know you must start with a good mix and this is the BIG TRUE i checked it all this years, a dynamic mix and no empty usually get you no problems for loud masters.
I expect it won'n be a typical loudnes crazy thing thread and sorry for my limited english.

I expect for a Bob Katz early recovery. Great book and friendly man.

[MASSIVE Master]

"It depends" is the stock answer. But IME, the HEDD's converters can certainly handle the "abuse" much better than most.

[lucey]

Yes, a little clipping can replace or augment a digital limiter, as needed. Some converters do it better than others based on analog headroom and other factors. I've not used the HEDD that way but it's discrete and that's a good sign. Lavry Gold and Pacific Micro clip nicely, for example.

[OberHeim-Kenobi]

Thank you a lot.
I have been trying to clip analog on the last step before my Rosetta 200 .The Avalon works like a brick wall if you place the right internal gain stage . But always clipping the AD or internal digital clipping give me wore punch than these clip analog at last step. I always feel the analog clip sound more on these 2nd 3rd hamonics versus digital typical harsh infinite hamonics.

So do you think Lavry or Pacific Micro is more sweet on clipping stage?

However i want to give my vote to quality of sound versus stupid loudness thing. It thread is only for a final morello of the cake.

[macc]

Originally Posted by OberHeim-Kenobi

.The Avalon works like a brick wall if you place the right internal gain stage .

Hello there, sorry if this is off-topic...

I use a 747 too - I was wondering if you could give me a little more information about how you gain stage the 747 to clip. Which stage do you drive the most, the input, the comp make-up, or the output? or a selection of each?

Any info would be nice, just as I am interested. Thanks!

[OberHeim-Kenobi]

Originally Posted by macc

Hello there, sorry if this is off-topic...

I use a 747 too - I was wondering if you could give me a little more information about how you gain stage the 747 to clip. Which stage do you drive the most, the input, the comp make-up, or the output? or a selection of each?

Any info would be nice, just as I am interested. Thanks!

The first thing i usually do is to leave the unit powered on about one hour before use it.
I usually insert the tube path and down the comp ratio to the lowest level. You have 3 level knobs. The second and the last must be on a low level to cranck the first sure you are hearing only the input sat, do it and begin to rise the input knob until you hear something wrong (Distortion) and down a little , now you have a brick wall there. It is the time for cranck the second knob (the comp make-up gain). You can lean on the firt step sound here and ever, go beyond and to clip more here (it depends of the sound you are on). These first two level knobs often add some harmonic content , use it conservatively. You will see the last one have a big jump to -20 db or so. On a well alimented Avalon* it can give you more different limiting thing. It sounds diferent to me, more sat without harmonics. I often use it to optimize the level to attack the conversor with no overs.

* when i plugged the unit to a power conditioner i noted a better performance (maybe your Ac is right)

In this time you can use freely more gear before the avalon and use (Avalon) only for brick wall thing . It will give you a bit of loudness to your master.
DON'T EXPECT MIRACLES HERE, but is a very good box to make this thing.

Have you special trick on this box?

Sometime i run negative feedback to get faster attack.

Hope this help you.

[macc]

That's really really helpful, thanks!

I don't really have any special 'tricks' with the box, I tend to use it a little more subtly than that - but I might start to abuse it now ;) I have a tfpro 38 in line after the Avalon so driving the in of that can add some juice too, and allows me to control the level into the converters :)


I do like the sidechain control though, and also sometimes use the sidechain listen as an eq - it's pretty sweet! You can really drive bass with it, to make it clip a bit like you suggest. Sounds horrible (in a good way :D )!

Thanks again.

[Mr Phil]

What do you mean by running a negative feedback?

[OberHeim-Kenobi]

Sure there are some more tecnical people to describe that....... i'll try

If you attack the compressor with your signal and you mix it ( the input) with the output ot the compressor phase 180º (phase shift only on the ouput of comp) ( you need a mixer).
You will see Avalon starts to performance on a different way between compresor and expander and rising the ratio. The peak it leave when try to compress (it is not fast enough) works smashing or nulling a little (phase 180º) the signal on the input because you are mixing it with the dry signal. It helps compressor to catch these peaks .
I'm not sure of that bc all of this run at the same time and the compressor no have time for all this but think on something similar to this.
It brings you some distortion increase, not bad, but Avalon is a high headroom box , if you not go to hard on the input , the trick is usable on a real session.

You have two options on this trick 1...send to next box (eq, converter....) the ouput of the compressor or the ouput of the mix you are sending to the compressor. The input mix is a parallel compresion (more suitable for mastering) and 2.....the other is a more direct comp signal, better for tracking and smashing a drum mix.
You can do more wild things with this trick. I always think Avalon 747 is too noble and shy for some works.


Ahh i have a TFpro gear too , I have a M16 16 transformer pres and summing box i use a lot like main mixer

[OberHeim-Kenobi]

Originally Posted by macc

That's really really helpful, thanks!

I don't really have any special 'tricks' with the box, I tend to use it a little more subtly than that - but I might start to abuse it now ;) I have a tfpro 38 in line after the Avalon so driving the in of that can add some juice too, and allows me to control the level into the converters :)


I do like the sidechain control though, and also sometimes use the sidechain listen as an eq - it's pretty sweet! You can really drive bass with it, to make it clip a bit like you suggest. Sounds horrible (in a good way :D )!

Thanks again.

Yeah .. these bass side chain eq sat seems very good trick .....i'll try

[Hybrid]

There is no such thing as good digital clipping.
The question you need to ask is: "Will every customer have a converter that handles +dBFS and aliasing as good as my converter?"
The questions is obviously no and this leaves the CD buying people with severe distortion while you thought it sounded good.
TCElectronics have some tech papers that gives a very good description of why digital clipping should be avoided at all cost. There is also a document by Orban that shows why digital clipping is also a horrible idea for stuff that will be played on the radio. It is simply an all over bad idea and everybody should stop it already.

H

[OberHeim-Kenobi]

Originally Posted by Hybrid

There is no such thing as good digital clipping.
The question you need to ask is: "Will every customer have a converter that handles +dBFS and aliasing as good as my converter?"
The questions is obviously no and this leaves the CD buying people with severe distortion while you thought it sounded good.
TCElectronics have some tech papers that gives a very good description of why digital clipping should be avoided at all cost. There is also a document by Orban that shows why digital clipping is also a horrible idea for stuff that will be played on the radio. It is simply an all over bad idea and everybody should stop it already.

H

I agree all of that. I know this papers and all about orban Hypercompression and almost all about loudness war. With respect to you, the thing i'm looking for is a device like Lavry saturation on Gold models. It is not a teenager desire. Dan Lavry converters are very used on very end profesionals enviroments and it has a wonderful algorithm for that i'm calling Good Clipping, maybe my definition is not clear.
I usually get very loud masters only with Eq, comp, exp and Limiting,
(using it right...i think).