Question for ME's who also make their own music...

[The Beatsmith]

Hi

How many of you guys compose, record, mix, and also master their own tracks?

I'd be interested in hearing your experiences! Do you find it difficult to stop obsessing about minor details?

I'm actually a mix eng who also does a little mastering (for people who can't afford a proper mastering eng). I am also a producer and musician. I have struggled for months to get a specific track mixed and mastered, doing 1000's of micro changes in the mix, and then being ultimately unhappy with the mastering job i was able to do. Before you say it - there was no budget left for this project, as there will be a small run of vinyl which is being mastered by someone else... the digital versions are on my head.

This track was especially difficult as it was a VERY dense mix, with lots of elements - that was a big part of the sound and vibe of the track (kind of a rock sounding track, but i generally make hiphop) - but the other tracks on the release were able to be pushed much louder, which made me then struggle to get any comparable volume level on the 'problem' track, which made me ultimately push it way too far.

Anyway, i've struggled for months on this one track/project, and i'm really sick of it. The enjoyment of listening to what i and others thought was a brilliant track, as been totally robbed from me - by myself. Most people probably couldn't tell the difference between any of the different mixes i did, and i wish i had not stressed over it like this.

I'd appreciate to hear your experiences on doing this, and has anyone else stressed about their own project like this? How have you learned to gain more objectivity and view of the 'bigger picture' when working on your own stuff? Taking a little/few days break doesn't really work as after 1/2 an hour i'm back making micro changes again. Listening to other reference tracks didn't really help me either

Thanks guys

[lucey]

Originally Posted by The Beatsmith

How many of you guys compose, record, mix, and also master their own tracks?

I'd be interested in hearing your experiences! Do you find it difficult to stop obsessing about minor details?

I'd appreciate to hear your experiences on doing this, and has anyone else stressed about their own project like this?

How have you learned to gain more objectivity and view of the 'bigger picture' when working on your own stuff?

Yes. Although I mix and master in different rooms, and mix with other ears around to comment.

Major details are more important than minor ones ... tempo and groove, vocal performance and arrangement. Basic tracking is where it happens. The mix is easy after those are done. Over mixing is a deadly disease, to be avoided. See: tracking and arrangement. Small details are not that important ... don't get lost there.

Working on your own material takes more skill and discipline than most people have who are doing it. It also takes commitment to a step-by-step process that you know will get you from A to Z, this is something you discover over time, and must be patient with.

Years of experience (aka failure) makes it easier, sure.




You're really asking about mixing, and what it takes. Mixing takes a vision, the skill to make that vision happen ... but first it takes great tracks. If you dont have the tracks, the vision and the skill then you're going to spend a lot of time on details that seem important but likely aren't.

Having infinite time is a killer. Being too busy with life to work on your own music is a good way to increase efficiency. Ultimately nothing is perfect, but the process can be very fulfilling and the results can be excellent.

[merge]

I am in the same situation right now - tracking guitars, bass and keys for a project that I am producing, mixing and mastering. I have no problems with the production side of things, it's always a question of the music for me. I have tried to find the artist a band sound for over the last 15 months that she likes, suits her voice etc - she plays piano and kind of sings... IMHO, it's all in the arranging and tracking of the performances...get that right and all else will flow easily enough.

Dense music mixes are kewl when it works but more often than not I find the clutter of lots of parts redundant when I hear it on a small loudspeaker i.e clock radio (mono). Just one or two parts stand out and the rest is landscape. This is of course different of great monitors which I work on but it does put things in perspective to playback on micros.

m

p.s. - maybe you should find a friendly local pro M.E to play your tracks to for advice and assistance. I'm sure any decent guy would shoot you a few pointers before even considering chargin' you like a wounded bull?

[jinksdingo]

I produce, mix material sometimes for pleasure. I generally only Master others peoples mixes or put a big break after a program has been mixed.
Sounds as though you are still getting it down on mixing or you are over correcting your mix beyond its fix.
This can carry over and over in mixing. It is when you are trying to correct something that in fact may be corrected but your ears still hear the mistake and continue to correct it.
If you are still trying to correct it in Mastering you know you are going crazy. In your mix listen on different monitors, listen loud listen soft change the perspective so you hear the program as though you have never heard it before.
This is a real ability for any of us to perfect.
Give it a nice long break before you attempt to Master if you must, preferably in another room on excellent speakers with adequate room treatment. Better still a real ME.
Overall, don't be too hard on yourself, get the mix acceptable, perfection is possibly unobtainable for obvious reasons.

[Russ (Al) Prat]

If I have my druthers I'd druther not engineer, mix, or master any of my own stuff. There's always one more thing I want to change, it's a never ending vicious circle, personally I don't have the discipline, although others may. OTOH, finances often dictate the least favorable route, and what starts as a songwriter's demo winds up needing to be finalized for somebody's consumption, even if not commercial. Even when I preface the demo with "This is only a rough demo" the inevitable comment like "too bassey, or the high hat's too loud, or this or that" so... all this to say that if you have financing, stay in the artist's chair and let someone else produce and engineer, it's much easier to be objective and it doesn't turn into a left brain right brain civil war. Some folks are capable of pulling it off, I'm definitely not. Have fun! RAP

[studioland]

I play music, produce, record, mix and master.
When working on my own stuff I never master.
The reason why is because I know someone else will bring more at this point than I could.
It's like if you can play bass, drums, guitar and sing of course you can do all the parts but more often getting a top bass, drum and guitar player will bring more to your tracks ... not that they would play better than you if you are a top player too but they will bring their own vision and humanity to it.

I prefer master music I haven't mixed because when I mix I take it the further away. For some clients I record mix and master but if they have enough money I prefer to have them let me send the material to someone else for mastering.

[twwalsh]

in general, if i can afford to have someone master a particular project of my own, i will do so. if not, i will master it myself.

[leaper]

I invariably mix and master my own productions and most productions for clients. I've been doing this for over 15 years now. The first 10 years were diabolically difficult.. backwards and forwards between mix and master.. excruciating! Now it's cool. While I have caused myself no end of stress, I have also learnt so much about how to listen to music, how to react appropriately and when certain disciplines need to be applied.
It was hell.. but well worth it.

Don't give up!

[lucey]

Originally Posted by leaper

I invariably mix and master my own productions and most productions for clients. I've been doing this for over 15 years now. The first 10 years were diabolically difficult.. backwards and forwards between mix and master.. excruciating! Now it's cool. While I have caused myself no end of stress, I have also learnt so much about how to listen to music, how to react appropriately and when certain disciplines need to be applied.
It was hell.. but well worth it.

I would agree ... 15 years is about what it took me. And now having a mix and a mastering room, it all works out.

[smoke]

I have mixes that I'm still fiddling with after 5 years!

Obviously I'm not an ME! or pro mixer.... or anything!

Originally Posted by lucey

Major details are more important than minor ones

That's a mouthful, sir.

[studioland]

I don't think anyone can have the best result alone.
There is always someone better than you doing something and if your project is that important you wouldn't want to have all the weight on your shoulders.

If you're a top mixing engineer then you know someone is better than you are at mastering and so on.

[lucey]

What the "best result" exactly, and who decides?

Could a single step be "better" with infinite funds and time to experiment? Perhaps.

[t_d]

i'm in this camp. i've been running a couple of experimental electronic music labels for over 10 years. i create and release my own music as well as a roster of many other artists. born out of low budget, i learned to "master" my own material, and continue to do so today. the past couple of years i've really gotten into it and have begun offering the service to artists on my label as well as outside clients. 12 years ago or so "mastering" to me was running some stuff through T-racks, equalizing levels and flow throughout a playlist, and burning a master cd. i did this a lot for labels who were putting together compilations with already-commerically-released tracks. since then i've built up some nice analog outboard equipment, convertors, etc... and began to take it a lot more seriously.

when i master my own music there is usually a number of weeks or months between when a piece is complete and when it gets mastered, so my ears and mind have had time to separate from the piece.

i think i do a good job, as do others, so i'm quite happy to do it.

like Lucey, my ideal situation is to move my analog equipment into another room and set up a mastering room. although, that's either after an addition has gone on the house, or i can build a studio in the woods...

to me mastering is more technical and analytical work, where composing is creative and inspirational.. so i have no problems doing and enjoying both.

[grandmasters]

I'm of the mind that 'true' mastering engineers only do mastering. Ya ok, there's exceptions like mix-mastering and stem-mastering but they are all done in the mastering studio with the same equipment.

I think mastering is a unique discipline and traditionally the great mastering engineers, once they settled into mastering, didn't do regular recording or mixing.

I myself only do mastering (and so do the other 2 engineers here at Lacquer Channel)... however (and pertinent to your original question) I have been working on my own album for the past two years. Recording and Mixing it. I'm afraid that I'll never get it done (note the two years) because I think (eat, sleep, breathe) like a mastering engineer. I think one song I've done the vocal take 100 times... it's sickening.

[Bob Olhsson]

There's no question that changing your head between mixing and mastering is challenging.

To me, one can't really master one's own mix however there's nothing really wrong with not mastering if you know you aren't too close to the project.

I've done a couple such projects lately but they were projects that were done with a live rhythm section of stellar session musicians that practically mixed themselves as opposed to the typical hundreds of hours spent on a rock group where everybody ends up feeling like a complete zombie.

[Ecktronic]

I do all that sometimes.
When I master my own mixes I don't use any EQ, sometimes a bit of compression although I mostly use a stereo comp on the master out on my mixes. Some limiting and/or clipping and any editing and fades that may need done.

I don't see any point in using EQ at mastering stage if you are mastering your own mixes as I think that the EQ should be right in the mix.

Its good to get a fresh set of ears though, especially on large projects.

Eck

[The Beatsmith]

yes, i didn't EQ at all, really. i felt like i should sometimes out of point of principle, until i reminded myself to do whatever sounds best...

indeed, if i mix it, i shouldn't really need to EQ during mastering...

thanks for all your comments guys

i asked the advice of a mastering engineer friend and he said generally positive comments, and some useful things to think about/adjust. he also did a quick master of one of the problematic tune (the one i wrote, produced, recorded etc), which he said was different, but not 'better' than mine. so, i've got that waiting for me, i'll listen for it tonight!

[lucey]

Originally Posted by grandmasters

I have been working on my own album for the past two years. Recording and Mixing it. I'm afraid that I'll never get it done (note the two years) because I think (eat, sleep, breathe) like a mastering engineer. I think one song I've done the vocal take 100 times... it's sickening.

Tracking 100 times is another matter, that's about musicianship, performance and vision. When I track my vocals it's an hour a song, but I'm still active as a musician every Wednesday night for the last 15 years with the same group. So it's not alone in a vacuum, there is a standard and an expectation to hit that's well defined. Working alone could be a hell!

I agree with the rest of your post, in that we all think like a _____. So if we think like a mastering guy than mixing can be very difficult. That's my story at least. Mixing is about pushing, and exploiting, and making things move and jump and speak as individuals. It's a very different skill. But my mixes on my own music end up closer than 95% of the work I hear from clients, in more time however.

Time is the equalizer, time is the avenger, time isn't holding us, time isn't after us ... oh sorry ...

[AroundTheClock]

The electronic musician known as "Vladislav Delay" has his own mastering room.

There is an article on the February issue of "The Wire";

The Wire: Adventures in Modern Music: Article

You can read a sample of it on the Vladislav Delay page;

Vladislavdelay.com » Press - The Wire Magazine Issue 288 - Feb 2008

His music is amazing by the way.

[t_d]

sasu is a very talented guy.. his Vladislav Delay productions are incredibly rich and warm.

i was certainly intrigued when i saw the cover of that Wire issue, got some nice gear in that rack.. and offered a possible explanation for his warm sounds...

is there a link anywhere to the full article?

Originally Posted by AroundTheClock

The electronic musician known as "Vladislav Delay" has his own mastering room.

There is an article on the February issue of "The Wire";

The Wire: Adventures in Modern Music: Article

You can read a sample of it on the Vladislav Delay page;

Vladislavdelay.com » Press - The Wire Magazine Issue 288 - Feb 2008

His music is amazing by the way.

[lucey]

I'd like to just clarify that there are two camps being discussed ...

1. professional MEs who also mix their own music.
A. producer/mixers who also master.

Different scenarios for sure.

[AroundTheClock]

Originally Posted by lucey

I'd like to just clarify that there are two camps being discussed ...

1. professional MEs who also mix their own music.
A. producer/mixers who also master.

Different scenarios for sure.

Sure, but we should first define what "professional" means ... Is it about earning money?

Vladislav delay masters for other artists by the way.

[lucey]

Originally Posted by AroundTheClock

Sure, but we should first define what "professional" means ... Is it about earning money?

That's not my point, so define it how you like (wall of Grammys, earning a primary living, making some money on the side from friends ... whatever you like.) I'm just saying that there are generally speaking a small group of MEs who occasionally make their own records, like once in a blue moon! ... and there are the 'mostly' producer/mixers who occasionally or often master those productions. We each have a center of gravity, some orbits are wide, some are narrow.

But the ME who rarely produces/mixes faces very different challenges to the mixer mastering, and the thread began about MEs who rarely produce/mix.