Test of stereo enhancers including K-Stereo

[PatrikT]

Originally Posted by Lagerfeldt

The best stereo spread I've heard yet.

The best stereo spread I've heard is mono.


patrik

[ISedlacek]

Originally Posted by PatrikT

The best stereo spread I've heard is mono.


patrik

Sorry to hear you lost one of your ears ...

[MAzevedo]

I've had the K-Stereo hardware for a while now, and I just wanted to say the settings you used are what I would call fairly heavy processing. The filters on the added ambience are almost always engaged (hipass around 180, lopass often off but can be as low as 2 or 4k on bright material) and the K-Level tends to be around -10 somewhere, often around -30 or -40. The problems people are citing with the K-Stereo (loss of bass, strange sibilance) are symptoms of over-processing and under-filtering, try the plugin demo and make sure you use the filters and don't be afraid to use very low levels of processing. Generally a little is just enough with the K.

[Andy Krehm]

Originally Posted by ISedlacek

So here you are:

A - BX control
B - Algorithmix K-Stereo
C - PSP Stereo Controler
D - Samplitude stereo enhancer

In the meantime when playing K-Stereo, I found that 0 dB setting (or even less) is in most cases just the right amount of processing and above that, it can be sometimes already too much (in the beginning I thought that 0 dB means no effect and below it the effect is even reverse, which is obviously not so.) As one of the Murphy laws say - when all the attempts fail, read the manual :-))) There it is indeed mentioned that 0dB setting represents the average amount of the process which usually suits most materials.
In the above samples I used + 1dB. If 0dB used, the result would probably sound more natural, I think. Another thing is that you don´t have to engage both controls (wide/deep), sometimes just one of them may work ideal in certain cases. Sometimes also settings below 0dB give yet more subtle enhancement ... which may be suitable for a given material.

I really like K-Stereo (and I obviously played with it a lot more than the few fixed examples above show). It gives very subtle, almost "ethereal" kind of enhancement that is not immediately obvious (and does not change the original structure of the sound), but when switching off, you notice that something is missing ... So far I have not played with the ambience EQ section, which can still shape and adjust the right type of ambience

As you could see above, most of those who listened to the samples immediately recognised that B sounds special, different than the others. Yes, it is true, although in a real situation, I would probably use it in slightly less amount ...

I too clearly prefered K-stereo treatment over all the other processors ... The mentioned occassional tiny artifacts (touch of sibilance or mid pushing )can be easily controled by the amount and type of process)<edit>

Still pondering about the best place of K-Stereo plugin in the ITB "fine tuning" mastering chain (after the analogue treatment).

I have owned the hardware box for years so I guess I shouldn't be to P/Oed about the probable loss of value now that the plug-in is out. I guess our Weiss boxes will soon suffer the same fate when Daniel gets his plug-in/card thingy going. And I'm sure my TC 6000 will soon be emulated!

So remember kids, with the advances in the plug-in realm, analog boxes are a better investment than outboard digital hardware!

As for settings, your observation is about the same as mine in that I'll use it on "wide" with a K level of 0 to 1.5 dB. I've used it on many of my masters over the years and will often augment it with some very subtle band-specific M/S settings. I do play with the high and low pass filters but have never bothered with the eq. Moving the low pass will take care of any sibilance problems.

As for placement, I usually think of the stereo field as something that is usually, or should have been, part of the mix and therefore I place the unit very close to the first digital insert in my chain (pre-analog), so that the stereo field is the way I want it before I apply any processing. I did experiment in the early days with this but have simply settled such a long time ago and guess I felt no need to experiment much. In fact, I haven't thought much of how I am using the unit until I saw this post. Maybe it's time for a fresh look!

One should also be very cautious of how you use these algorithms with sharp, percussive instuments. I have had to remaster a few Latin and dance tracks (same setting but with the K-unit in BP) as some of my clients have actually heard the results of the subtle echos. They never know what's causing it but as soon as they give me a certain description, I know I should take it out! Funny though, it rarely bothers me.

Maybe I should sell my unit now, while the value is still up but then again, I'm working on the Mac platform and we are excluded from a lot of interesting looking plug-ins.

[Lagerfeldt]

Sonalksis StereoTools (beta)
http://www.onlinemastering.dk/stereo...tereoTools.wav

Waves S1
http://www.onlinemastering.dk/stereotest/F_Waves_S1.wav

I wasn't able to find any other 24 bit files than version 3 (Vocal Group sample), so that's all I did.

Best in my opinion
E. Sonalksis StereoTools
C. PSP

These two a very similar though which an upper edge to Sonalksis for fidelity. Simple spreading at its best.

Acceptable
A. BX Control

Not good
D. Samplitude
F. Waves S1

Something weird is going on with the Samplitude spreader, doesn't sound or measure right. Waves S1 messes with the image and sibilance is bad.

Out of category
B. Algorithmix K-Stereo

This sounds radically different and while I don't find it does anything good on the acapella vocal group it would probably be an interesting tool in other situations.

[Reborn]

Originally Posted by Lagerfeldt

Sonalksis StereoTools (beta)
http://www.onlinemastering.dk/stereo...tereoTools.wav

Waves S1
http://www.onlinemastering.dk/stereotest/F_Waves_S1.wav

I wasn't able to find any other 24 bit files than version 3 (Vocal Group sample), so that's all I did.

Best in my opinion
E. Sonalksis StereoTools
C. PSP

These two a very similar though which an upper edge to Sonalksis for fidelity. Simple spreading at its best.

Acceptable
A. BX Control

Not good
D. Samplitude
F. Waves S1

Something weird is going on with the Samplitude spreader, doesn't sound or measure right. Waves S1 messes with the image and sibilance is bad.

Out of category
B. Algorithmix K-Stereo

This sounds radically different and while I don't find it does anything good on the acapella vocal group it would probably be an interesting tool in other situations.

Lagerfeldt when will the sonalksis be available? Sounds Good

Jazztone

[ISedlacek]

Yes, this Sonalksis sounds really good. I just sent Lagerfeldt 24 bit files of the pop and (new) electronica samples

I did it freshly anew just with PSP and K-stereo (this time with 0dB setting, EQ engaged and Low Cut at 100Hz). I believe he will add Sonalksis sample to these soon:

POP-new

Pop - original

Pop - PSP

Pop - K-Stereo


ELECTRONICA-new


Electro - original

Electro - PSP

Electro - K-Stereo

[Lagerfeldt]

Originally Posted by Reborn

Lagerfeldt when will the sonalksis be available? Sounds Good

Jazztone

Soon, according to Sonalksis. ;-) Q2 2008 until further notice.

I'll make and post the other files Monday.

[Arksun]

Originally Posted by Lagerfeldt

Sonalksis StereoTools (beta)
http://www.onlinemastering.dk/stereo...tereoTools.wav

Waves S1
http://www.onlinemastering.dk/stereotest/F_Waves_S1.wav

I wasn't able to find any other 24 bit files than version 3 (Vocal Group sample), so that's all I did.

Best in my opinion
E. Sonalksis StereoTools
C. PSP

These two a very similar though which an upper edge to Sonalksis for fidelity. Simple spreading at its best.

Acceptable
A. BX Control

Not good
D. Samplitude
F. Waves S1

Something weird is going on with the Samplitude spreader, doesn't sound or measure right. Waves S1 messes with the image and sibilance is bad.

Out of category
B. Algorithmix K-Stereo

This sounds radically different and while I don't find it does anything good on the acapella vocal group it would probably be an interesting tool in other situations.

I agree the K-Stereo is more like a different effect than the others, I'm probably going to get a lot of stick for this but, the K-Stereo examples just didn't do it for me :/ , was it just the way it was used for these particular examples?

BX Control sounded the most hyped on the Pop examples but I liked the way it made things leap out.

That Sonalksis Stereo enhancer does sound very nice BUT, to me its doing something more than just enhancing stereo, but enhancing the top end as well, that vocal example has more sparkle on the top end than the orig, is there more going on in the Sonalksis? some freq boosting or harmonic stuff?.

I'm not sure if this is a good thing or bad, certainly if one wanted to enhance the stereo more transparently and the original source already contained enough 'sparkle' in its sound.

Looking forward to it all the same :)

Has anyone else tested nugen audios stereo pack?

[ISedlacek]

Originally Posted by Arksun

I agree the K-Stereo is more like a different effect than the others, I'm probably going to get a lot of stick for this but, the K-Stereo examples just didn't do it for me :/ , was it just the way it was used for these particular examples?

Yes, if you look slightly above, I used it again in more suitable settings. I quite prefer the result to both original and PSP Stereo Controller (especially in the pop sample)

[Sunbreak Music]

I've spent some time with it each day since the demo became available.

I'm starting to get the impression that's it's most useable if you "target" a specific frequency range. In other words, more of a corrective tool. Either the mix needs something, or it doesn't--it wouldn't be something that I would leave on the buss.

I'm going to keep working with it, though. It's definitely a different product, and I'm sure there are some applications where it would be a lifesaver.

[Lagerfeldt]

Originally Posted by Sunbreak Music

I'm starting to get the impression that's it's most useable if you "target" a specific frequency range. In other words, more of a corrective tool. Either the mix needs something, or it doesn't--it wouldn't be something that I would leave on the buss.

Probably simple M/S equalizing would do the trick.

A nice feature in the Sonalksis StereoTools is the "Zero width below X Hz", i.e. tight bottom, wide top.

Seamless crossover, sounds natural and with no side-effects.

Originally Posted by Arksun

That Sonalksis Stereo enhancer does sound very nice BUT, to me its doing something more than just enhancing stereo, but enhancing the top end as well, that vocal example has more sparkle on the top end than the orig, is there more going on in the Sonalksis? some freq boosting or harmonic stuff?

Nopes, but I bounced with POW-r#3. Perhaps I should do a new bounce without noise shaping although it probably won't matter very much on a 24 bit file.

[Sunbreak Music]

Originally Posted by Lagerfeldt

Probably simple M/S equalizing would do the trick.

A nice feature in the Sonalksis StereoTools is the "Zero width below X Hz", i.e. tight bottom, wide top.

Seamless crossover, sounds natural and with no side-effects.



Nopes, but I bounced with POW-r#3. Perhaps I should do a new bounce without noise shaping although it probably won't matter very much on a 24 bit file.

Yes--it's helpul to be able to control the width at various frequencies. The multiband stereo enhancer from Magix allows you that flexibility as well, and in a few bands. M/S equalization can work in some cases, but this is different because you can work whatever magic it contains without unbalancing the image--it's applied to the stereo source.

You can really screw some stuff up with it! I'll have to check out the tools you're referring to--thanks for the heads up.

[jdtrbn]

I'm glad B was K-Stereo, it was my favourite. It may be different from usual stereo enchanters but I think K-Stereo does better the jobs I'd use enchancers now.

I didn't like A so much, probably it's less sensitive than the others (maybe 125% would do the job?).

I didn't get much out of the third example anyway, so can't tell my opinion about Sonalksis yet...

[Thomas W. Bethe]

I downloaded the demo and played around with the K-Stereo plugin. It is not really audible until you bypass it and then you think to yourself "what happened to the depth" I do think it is a bit overpriced but useful if you need it*. I tried it on a 96 KHz 24 bit recording I just did of a harpsichord in a small, all sandstone, chapel and it did help the sound. I also tried it on some voice over work I just did for a client and it did make a difference in the ambiance of the voice. If it were available for under $300 it might be worth an addition to my plug in library. I really like my PSP plug-ins and they are usually all I need.

*A word here about physical equipment versus plug-ins. I can see paying a couple of thousand dollars for a piece of hardware since it is made up of devices and passive components that have to be purchased, assembled and tested. There is also the cost of design and development that goes into the unit before it hits the store shelves. Software too has to cover the costs of design and development but once it is complete there are no other on going manufacturing costs to worry about and the only ongoing cost is that of updates and upgrades. Why is it that companies like Voxengo, PSP and Izotope can make software that works well and is reasonably priced and other software manufactures have to charge an arm and a leg for their software? I realize that some software is so specialized that only a hand full of people will use it and so the cost per each has to be high but audio plug-ins are used by LOTS of people and the cost per software title purchased should be lower. Oh well I guess it is the old "supply and demand" economics taking over in a weird way.

Just my two cents worth.

[bob katz]

Originally Posted by ISedlacek

Mabe you better post the question in this thread ? Algorithmix K-Stereo Released

Can we here just concentrate at the comparison itself ?

Having read the admin's opinions he seems to have totally missed the point. He clearly did not read the patent thoroughly, because if he had, he would have learned what the Madsen effect accomplishes and how it has been extended in an entirely unique way. He also seems to have gone off the deep end calling me names that are totally unwarranted given the precedents and distinctions which are clearly delineated in the patent and the original elements therein. It's also not my job to defend myself to someone who's being an arrogant, presumptive, wrong, and insulting son of a bitch!

[bleak orange]

Having read the admin's opinions he seems to have totally missed the point. He clearly did not read the patent thoroughly, because if he had, he would have learned what the Madsen effect accomplishes and how it has been extended in an entirely unique way. He also seems to have gone off the deep end calling me names that are totally unwarranted given the precedents and distinctions which are clearly delineated in the patent and the original elements therein. It's also not my job to defend myself to someone who's being an arrogant, presumptive, wrong, and insulting son of a bitch!

What ?
What happened here ?
Have you guys been talking off the pitch ?

[ISedlacek]

Originally Posted by bleak orange

What ?
What happened here ?
Have you guys been talking off the pitch ?

Bob responded to this:

Originally Posted by Hane
I visited the Audiomasters website. A site dedicated to Adobe Audition and Cool Edit Pro. In their "Third Party Plugins" forum there's a thread about the K-Stereo Ambience Processor. Click HERE for the Admins opinions. Want do you think?

[bleak orange]

Aha ! I see...

Audition is a cool program, but that admin dude over there sure seems to be one pissy lad !

sorry for the off topic post

[da goose]

Been reading this post and i like it!
I have downloaded and tested the demo of the k-stereo and i really do like it but the sonalksis sounds also interesting, i like the sonalksis stuff myself and so this sounds like something i could buy.

Maybe it's also an idea to test the ozone3 multiband stereo image option?
I like it myself, the freq crossover part is nice, it;s good for removing phase problems in the low end, just set the freq to about 200hz and flip the fader below 0 and from 0 > 200hz it becomes mono.
The widening is also OK if used subtle, the delay settings sound a bit unnatural to me tough.
But maybe a combo with the ozone mightbe nice.

[PatrikT]

Are there fixed delay times in the K?


BR
Patrik

[ISedlacek]

After playing with these various tools for a while and listening freshly again to the results, I cannot get rid of rather blasphemic feeling, that keeps returning (God forgive me ...) - isn´t it the original that sounds the best in the end ?

BUT - probably it is like with most of tools (including the very best). It simply depends on the given material and music.

[bob katz]

Originally Posted by Andy Krehm

I have owned the hardware box for years so I guess I shouldn't be to P/Oed about the probable loss of value now that the plug-in is out.

Hey, at least you have real knobs to play with :-)

snip

One should also be very cautious of how you use these algorithms with sharp, percussive instuments. I have had to remaster a few Latin and dance tracks (same setting but with the K-unit in BP) as some of my clients have actually heard the results of the subtle echos. They never know what's causing it but as soon as they give me a certain description, I know I should take it out! Funny though, it rarely bothers me.

Maybe I should sell my unit now, while the value is still up but then again, I'm working on the Mac platform and we are excluded from a lot of interesting looking plug-ins.

As for percussion, if you like the sense of ambience, space or warmth enhancement in the midrange, try a low pass filter. Works very well. The reason you may hearing subtle echos is complex, one of which may be simple Hass effect breakdown, the other is that you may be simply hearing the direct reflections of the walls of the percussion booth or the studio being exagerrated.

BK

[bonne]

Originally Posted by bleak orange

Aha ! I see...

Audition is a cool program, but that admin dude over there sure seems to be one pissy lad !

Yes, isn't that the truth. He's doing Cool Edit/Audition a disservice. Strange that the company wants him in that position.

I think Bob's describtion of him is very precise.

[skeptics]

what about analog M/S processing , isn't that better than all these vst plugins?

[beyarecords]

Originally Posted by Lagerfeldt

I'd love to include the new yet unreleased Sonalksis StereoTools.

The best stereo spread I've heard yet.

Lagerfeldt,
any news on when any files with this processing will be ready to listen to?

Edit: Could you also tell me what sample rates it supports?

[DrDeltaM]

Just a test with some quick settings by ear as this one doesn't work with exact numbers and is more then just one control :-) So prolly isn't really 118%, but gives an idea of a possible setting anyway. (note, it's more then just a simple spreader)

[ISedlacek]

Originally Posted by DrDeltaM

Just a test with some quick settings by ear as this one doesn't work with exact numbers and is more then just one control :-) So prolly isn't really 118%, but gives an idea of a possible setting anyway. (note, it's more then just a simple speader)

But what is it ?