Critical listen to a few Masters (feedback)

[Mixocalypse]

I Know all the MEs out there are busy, but I would love if you guys could take a critical listen to these masters in your rooms.
Id love to hear from the big guys please.

- One Master was done at a pro mastering facility dedicated to mastering.

- The other was Mastered by me ITB. And Dithered down to 16bit w/iZotope MBIT+™ Dither

- I have also included my original mix that both where mastered from, for reference.

I originally decided to do this because I felt my Mastering Engineer was killing my Snare and my Kicks. I wanted to see if I could retain them while still making a good master. I have to say... I should have mixed the kick a little louder, but the snare im still having trouble keep it present.

I generally cater to local bands with low budgets and therefor master many projects in studio. I do however prefer to have my mixes mastered by someone else, a mastering engineer in a good room with nice analog gear. So when the band is right I push hard to get them to understand how important it can be. I generally bring all my projects to the same mastering engineer. I attend (with my mouth shut) all my bands/clients mastering sessions.

anyway... now its just for fun. well kinda... I wanna hear feedback.

1. So have a listen and tell me which one you prefer and why. And can you tell which one was Mastered ITB... god I hope so.

2. How the hell can I get my snares to stay forward and full thru-out the mastering process. Im guessing some of this must lie in the mixing...

3. If you think you can do a better job... please feel free to share a snippet of your mastering skills.

Here are the files. Masters are both 16/44.1 and the mix is 24/44.1

Coming_Clean_MS1.wav

Coming_Clean_MS2.wav

Coming_Clean_mix.wav


thank you guys.

[Darius van H]

oooooohhh, i've only got to master an album and 3 single this evening, but i like games!

Firstly, the mix sucks..........sorry! (actually i think the problem is more that the band sucks)

Second, next time, if you're going to ask busy people to give some of their time to you for free, take the trouble to edit the files so they're all synced up at the beginning.

I prefer MS2 and i think that's the analog one, although i think the guitars have had a bit too much low eq'd into them, presumably with MS.......it sounds a bit too tubby to me............but generally a good job

By the way, after i decided MS2 was analog, i cheated and looked at the sample sync which confirmed my suspicions...sorry for giving the game away!

[Mixocalypse]

Originally Posted by Darius van H

oooooohhh, i've only got to master an album and 3 single this evening, but i like games!....

Thanks for the fast reply... not sure what was actually helpfull about that reply, but thank you.. I guess. You answered one of the questions.. sort of..

My apologies for not making the original mix start in the same spot as the masters. I know the masters are not exact either. I sapose it would have been easier to A/B.

I hope I haven't come across as insulting to any MEs, it was not my intention at all.
Just looking for helpful info to improve my projects. Couldn't think of a better place do discuss things than a forum dedicated to mastering.

thanks again.

[jdg]

both are really bright and loud.

if it didn't have to be so loud.. the snare would sound better.

ms2 sounds better to me, more weight.. still too bright for me tho.

[Darius van H]

Don't take me too seriously!.........stressful day, just blowing off some steam!..........speaking the truth, all-be-it, rather bluntly

Work on your production, that's where the most gains will be found.

Good luck!

[twwalsh]

ms2 sounds way better.

[Mixocalypse]

Originally Posted by twwalsh

ms2 sounds way better.

Originally Posted by Darius van H

Work on your production, that's where the most gains will be found.

Could you guys go into more detail? please... please...

[Darius van H]

Originally Posted by StaticStudios

Could you guys go into more detail? please... please...

I'm not into guitar music production so i couldn't give any specific advice.........to me the energy feels wrong in the track......the guitars have the wrong tone, and the drummer isn't hitting it right....i think you'd have to replace the hell out of the drums or change the drummer. (You lose a lot of power when everyones timing is off).

The snare has a sharp pointy transient, but little meat.......you need to saturate it (the transient) somehow to bring up the body.

Honestly i think the problem is the band, not the mix.....they chose their intruments, gear, wrote the song, the mix starts right there.

[UnderTow]

On a quick listen I also choose MS2.

MS2 sounds less congested. Especially in the louder bits. MS1 sounds too crushed in these sections. These sections actually seem to lose power instead of gaining power. The high frequencies fall to pieces and sound kind of phasey or something.

MS2 sounds slightly bigger (more low) and more detailed than MS1 it also (just) manages to keep the heavily compress/limited sections together.

IMO there is an issue with the mix: The "louder" sections don't pop-out compared to the "softer" sections (AKA lack of macro dynamics) as though everything is trying to be fit in this box that is a bit too small for the track.
This reduces the impact that the "louder" sections should have.

Also IMO, the vocal is a bit too bright/sibilant. Snare is wimpy. Kick is also wimpy.

Alistair

[fradoca]

way too loud!
both ms1 and ms2
all dynamics are smashed -9 dbfs!
usually i don't go over -12 dbfs but my "customers" are not so pretentious... :-)


cheers

[Mixocalypse]

Thank you for going into more detail Darius and Alistair

Originally Posted by fradoca

usually i don't go over -12 dbfs but my "customers" are not so pretentious... :-)
cheers

That sounds pretentious... :-) really..

[fradoca]

That sounds pretentious... :-) really..[/quote]


you asked for an opinion....that's just my two cents...
in digital video there are rules when you encode to dolby digital
or dts audio or you make proper levels for tv broadcasting.
Rules that i know well.
If producers,engineers and ME would apply the same concept
contained in digital video for audio recording i think that listening to modern music would be a much better experience.
I simply don't like loud levels...or smashed dynamics...
but i say it again...my opinion is just a drop of water in the sea ...




cheers

[Mixocalypse]

fradoca

Agreed on the levels topic. It was the pretentious part that was pretentious LOL

[MASSIVE Master]

#2. It's not even a fair fight -- even after adjusting for volume.

Could you guys go into more detail? please... please...

#1 sounds like a telephone by comparison.

[MASSIVE Master]

Originally Posted by Darius van H

By the way, after i decided MS2 was analog, i cheated and looked at the sample sync which confirmed my suspicions...sorry for giving the game away!

Heh... I came back to "see if I was being harsh" and read your post there...

I stick by the whole "telephone" comment.

[brethes]

Originally Posted by StaticStudios

I originally decided to do this because I felt my Mastering Engineer was killing my Snare and my Kicks. I wanted to see if I could retain them while still making a good master. I have to say... I should have mixed the kick a little louder, but the snare im still having trouble keep it present.

The main problem of the mix is the sound of the drums. The kick is actually quite loud but flabby and the snare is weak & too quiet (very bad starting point as snares are usually the first to suffer with extra compression and limiting, so better mix the snare a little too loud than too quiet)

Originally Posted by StaticStudios

1. So have a listen and tell me which one you prefer and why. And can you tell which one was Mastered ITB... god I hope so.

These days, the distinction should be irrelevant as good results can be achieved by both methods. The choice should be left to the engineer who what tools he/she prefers.

Both versions suck, mainly because of the limitations of the mix and lack of experience (or commitment) to make the best of what is available. The first one is over-compressed and looses all the dynamics in the chorusses, the second one has better dynamics but is harsh sounding. None of them address the sibilance in the vocals or the lack of bottom end. The second one is better but it looks like the engineer didn't try hard to improve the sound and just left the mix pretty much as it was but louder...

Originally Posted by StaticStudios

3. If you think you can do a better job... please feel free to share a snippet of your mastering skills.

Here we go:
YouSendIt - Send large files - transfer delivery - FTP Replacement

It's loud but this genre of music needs to be loud, so please no snide comments from people who can't stand loud RMS as this is not relevant to this post.

[peeder]

This was a good opportunity to try out my new toy!

A $199 Art Pro VLA!

(If you want the whole file, it's here: YouSendIt - Send large files - transfer delivery - FTP Replacement )

[Mixocalypse]

Originally Posted by MASSIVE Master

#2. It's not even a fair fight -- even after adjusting for volume.
#1 sounds like a telephone by comparison.

Im not trying to take anything away from my ME ( I don't really think I could), Im trying to understand how I can make my mixes, or his masters even better. While I will agree my Master does not sound as good, I don't think it sounds like a telephone. I was kind hoping for more constructive feedback.
I will agree that its smashed to bits, especially when it should get louder. I tried to get as loud as the original master... and thats what I ended up with.

Originally Posted by brethes@mac.com

The main problem of the mix.....

thanks you for all your feedback as well as the re-master, I will check it out in the studios later today.

Originally Posted by peeder

This was a good opportunity to try out my new toy! ....

Thanks for the effort as well.

Thank you so far to those who have giving helpful constructive advise, its much appreciated.

Ive also gotten a few helpful PM, thanks guys!

.

[peeder]

My suggestions are:

1) Get monitors (and a treated room) that you are so proud of you put them first on your signature inventory

2) Get a De-esser and use it.

[Mixocalypse]

No... I know.. its been mentioned a few times... de-essing.
This was a pretty big issue for me in this mix.. and this song was actually not as problematic as one other. I just couldn't seem to find that frequency.

[MASSIVE Master]

I don't think it sounds like a telephone.

I didn't say it sounds like a telephone - I said it sounds like a telephone by comparison... The difference isn't subtle (in the files. Well, in the statement also).

[drakewire]

What the hell I had a few minutes this morning, I haven't listened to anybody else's, but I listened to the three wav's, one thing that I found was missing was a good low end. That snare is tedious but I did a test master with my tools, a little more high end than Izotope

But I am not saying it sounds better, just my intepretation as I totally repainted your eq structure.. BTW The band doesnt suck...

But here is my test master
I ran it out to analog and then back in the box... I used Waves V-Series for compression and maximized sound with inflator, Stereo Widening Algorithmix EQ and finally limited with L-316

RMS -10.0 Which is way loud enough, the mix is to fragile to push any louder.... As it is it already sounds a bit squashed... But hey its free...
http://drakewire.com/come/Coming_Clean_Test.wav

[Weasel9992]

Both of those samples (Peeder and Brethes) were **HUGE** improvements over what the OP had going on in any of his samples. Like night and day, not even in the same ballpark improvements even over the ME version. Neither was better than the other...both different, both good enough for radio. Nice job guys.

Weez

[Mixocalypse]

Originally Posted by Weasel9992

Both of those samples (Peeder and Brethes) were **HUGE** improvements.....

I like brethes best too. But it pumped the GTRs in the beginning. once the song picked up in the heaver parts it rocked!
i actually had a great Job set to me in a PM. It retained my Kick and snare a lot better too.

thanks

[drakewire]

But that was the problem in the mix to begin with... The Snare and the Kick... Everything else is good, the vocals probably need a little dip in the high 7 range as they are kind of crisp. But the snare sounds very plastic, IMO with way too much boost in the 800-1.2K range and the kick kind of like hitting a cardboard box, needless to say not very three demensional. Both Brethes and Peeder are boosting the lower frequencies to over compensate for this, neither are great, but are much better.... DId you run a drum sub mix? or how did you record these drums is probably the better question....
The fact is, I know a bunch of the ME's on this board would tell you the same thing... Don't try and polish a luke warm mix... Yes its fun, but the fact is if this is radio we are going for, I disagree with the previous poster, your not in the ballpark yet. The radio has its own compression and it would make a track like this sound extremely thin....
I would go back boost the kick with more pump and tame the snare and try and tighten that up... Also the high end that is above 5K needs some work as it may begin to smear on different listening set ups....
Good luck...

[Mixocalypse]

drakewire, I havent listed to yours yet. Ill check it out in the morning. This particular project is done. it was done with that original ME's master. Im just kind of on a self exploring thing now. So its not really about "polishing a turd" its about the future.
I have totally worked on the snare and kick in the mix. Its clear now it was my mix that had more issues, making it hard to Master properly. TOTALLY agreed. if you guys are up for it id be happy to repost a re-mixed and re-master(by me) version. I guess I don't want to impose to much more. I am however very thankful for the helpful and constructive criticism that most of you gave. Sometimes I get lost in really bad mix habits and a swift kick from some good ears helps a lot.

[drakewire]

No its fine, you should post an updated version, I love your avatar, see thats what you need to use on that kick
Use 550 and push that baby up in the 100 range...
My version, is actually way more sizzler as I was listening to it today... I can clean it up a bit.. But as said, with all mastering, you start boosting some frequencies, the other frequencies are affected.
I do not think the mix sucks, nor the band, the vocalist is good, but there were points in the song that some additional vocal layering would have been cool and made it more modern. There were a few areas where I felt the vocalist perhaps was biting down on some words, which of course is not the S.E nor the M.E's fault. But I am unsure of your position...
Fact is, its a decent song and if by future you mean mixes in the future, I would suggest getting a sub woofer to mix with, as I can almost guarantee you did not have one.
Rock songs like this should have a nice warm bottom end between 80 to 200K and should be higher on the spectrum peaks than say the region above 2K, which should fall in place pretty naturally with big guitars and drums.
However, the focus I am learning is on drums and the placement of those first in the mix and building everything off of that. I am still very much a novice when it comes to practice, but I guess what I am trying to say is songs like this should be drum punch and drum lead to really push the groove of the song... Some how this drums in this mix seem a bit pushed back....
For your reference... My listening set up Adam S3's, Infinity Sub....