Smart c2 vs Api 2500

[PrinsJan]

Originally Posted by dhiltonlittle

sounds like you're more interested in the trakkers than the api or smart

why not just save and get what you want?

Then my studio looks like a Crane Song store

But hey, good point, at this moment, I'm not sure what I want. So I will set up a gear shoot out with my dealer...

[fenderbender.]

Here are the details from the Waves API 2500 Plug-in user manual. I've also attached it in original PDF format.

I just tried the demo of this plug... It's really great! It seems to have more distortion/artifacts than the SSL comp. plug-in, though it had plenty of character. Also, it really, really has a strong analog emulation/saturation thing going on. Once it's in and active it adds a lot of upper harmonics and high freq. content to the program.
The auto make-up gain worries me, it sounds so good! Also, it kind of takes away all the fun in having a bus compressor. That HF stuff is most likely coming from the "analog modeling" together with the auto m/u gain. That's my take, anyway. Someone else care to share?

But, all-in-all, it sounds great! Too bad the process of installing and authorizing Waves stuff is a (cruel) joke. I'd never use their stuff because they make it such a pain. It's really unbelieveable.


Here's some info. from the manual. I've trimmed some of the descriptions to remove the obvious. The entire thing is attached as a PDF, if ya want it. . .

Originally Posted by Waves API-2500 User Manual

Threshold

Sets the point at which compression begins. Threshold for each stereo channel is set independently, since each channel has its own RMS detector, even in Link mode. In Auto Gain Make-up mode, the Threshold also affects the gain. Threshold is a continuous control.
Range
+10dBu to -20dBu (-12dBFS to -42dBFS)
Default
0dBu
Attack
Sets the attack time of each channel.
Range
.03ms, .1ms, .3ms, 1ms, 3ms, 10ms, 30ms
Default
1ms
Ratio
Sets the compression ratio of each channel. In Auto Gain Make-up mode, Ratio also affects the gain.
Range
1.5:1, 2:1, 3:1, 4:1, 6:1, 10:1, inf:1
Default
4:1
Release
Sets the Release time of the compressor. When set to Variable, Release time is controlled by the Variable Release control, located to the right of the Release control.
Range
.05sec, .1sec, .2sec, .5sec, 1sec, 2sec, Variable
Default
.5sec
Variable Release
Controls the release time with a continuously variable knob . (Please note: Release control must be set to Variable.)
Range
.05 seconds to 3 seconds in steps of 0.01ms
Default
.5sec

[PrinsJan]

Originally Posted by fenderbender.

Here are the details from the Waves API 2500 Plug-in user manual. I've also attached it in original PDF format.

I just tried the demo of this plug... It's really great! It seems to have more distortion/artifacts than the SSL comp. plug-in, though it had plenty of character. Also, it really, really has a strong analog emulation/saturation thing going on. Once it's in and active it adds a lot of upper harmonics and high freq. content to the program.
The auto make-up gain worries me, it sounds so good! Also, it kind of takes away all the fun in having a bus compressor. That HF stuff is most likely coming from the "analog modeling" together with the auto m/u gain. That's my take, anyway. Someone else care to share?

But, all-in-all, it sounds great! Too bad the process of installing and authorizing Waves stuff is a (cruel) joke. I'd never use their stuff because they make it such a pain. It's really unbelieveable.


Here's some info. from the manual. I've trimmed some of the descriptions to remove the obvious. The entire thing is attached as a PDF, if ya want it. . .

Sorry this is the plug-in. I'm talking hardware only

[fenderbender.]

Originally Posted by PrinsJan

Sorry this is the plug-in. I'm talking hardware only

The plug-in is modeled after the hardware. I'm sure the settings are the same for both. If not, the manual should describe any discrepancies.

[duvalle]

Originally Posted by fenderbender.

The plug-in is modeled after the hardware. I'm sure the settings are the same for both. If not, the manual should describe any discrepancies.

[fenderbender.]

Originally Posted by PrinsJan

Is the release of API 2500 as fast as the c2 ??
c2 is dual mono, API 2500 (not??), this is important, because I never like compressors in a linked mode. How's API dealing with is ?
I know there are some sidechain built into the API, also for the low end, and at what frequency ?

What would you choose ?

You know that when these emulation plug-ins are created they model using a hardware unit? And the designers almost always (esp. in the case of Waves) try to be as faithful to the original hardware as possible. So you can use the included documentation (together with some effort) to help find answers to your questions. Or you can just scoff at my posts instead of taking the time to look at the information that I provided...

You asked:

Originally Posted by PrinsJan

Is the release of API 2500 as fast as the c2 ??

I don't know the C2. The Waves plug-in GUI is modeled after the original API; see the user manual for possible release settings.

Originally Posted by PrinsJan

c2 is dual mono, API 2500 (not??), this is important, because I never like compressors in a linked mode. How's API dealing with is ?

From the Waves manual:

L/R Link
Sets the percentage of linkage between the left and right channels. While in Link mode, each channel is still controlled by its own RMS detector, which prevents loading and slaving from either side.
Range
IND, 50%, 60%,70%,80%,90%,100%
Default
100%

From the API manual:
The patent-pending LINK feature is also unique to the 2500. First, there is a variable link control, ranging from IND (independent) to 50% through 100%. The variable linking allows combining of the left and right control voltages over a range, minimizing the interaction between channels, while still linking them to retain the stereo image.

Originally Posted by PrinsJan

I know there are some sidechain built into the API, also for the low end, and at what frequency ?

From the Waves manual:

Sidechain lets you trigger the compressor using an external source, which is fed into the RMS detector and controls the compression of the input signal. Sidechain may only be used in New (Feed Forward) mode. An external sidechain trigger cannot be used in Old (Feed Back) mode; attempting to do so automatically switches the compressor to New (Feed Forward) mode.

Here are links. I won't even tell you what they are. Perhaps you'll read it should you not find someone that's willing to spoon-feed information to you a la The Matrix.
Perhaps...

http://www.apiaudio.com/2500.html

http://www.apiaudio.com/man2500.pdf
API 2500

[SafeandSound]

I have been using both of these compressors emulated in Liquid Mix and prefer the sound of the Smart Research emulation, I appreciate you are an analogue guy though.

They are both fantastic sounding compressors IMO, at least with the emulations it seems the track I tested it on retained it's essential character
but was put under nice control by the C2 emulation adding some thickness
and both the bass and highs were more natural sounding and were effected less than with the API emulation which thinned the sound slightly.

I simply A/B'd them with the same music on 2 seperate tracks in Nuendo4.

I think the API is a little more agressive, a little less transparent, you mention "grabby" and I guess this means following the music in a timely manner when clamping down.

[duvalle]

Originally Posted by fenderbender.

Or you can just scoff at my posts instead of taking the time to look at the information that I provided...

mhh .. sorry ... but ....

i think most of the people here are well aware of what waves does and what products
they have. maybe you should take a look where you are posting ...
this is the gs mastering forum and this thread is about hardware!
no need to link to the waves manual.

[Lagerfeldt]

Fenderbender was merely trying to be helpful, and the settings for e.g. release should be the same for the software & hardware unit.

So let's not be unreasonable.

[PrinsJan]

Originally Posted by fenderbender.

You know that when these emulation plug-ins are created they model using a hardware unit? And the designers almost always (esp. in the case of Waves) try to be as faithful to the original hardware as possible. So you can use the included documentation (together with some effort) to help find answers to your questions. Or you can just scoff at my posts instead of taking the time to look at the information that I provided...

You asked:



I don't know the C2. The Waves plug-in GUI is modeled after the original API; see the user manual for possible release settings.




From the Waves manual:

L/R Link
Sets the percentage of linkage between the left and right channels. While in Link mode, each channel is still controlled by its own RMS detector, which prevents loading and slaving from either side.
Range
IND, 50%, 60%,70%,80%,90%,100%
Default
100%

From the API manual:
The patent-pending LINK feature is also unique to the 2500. First, there is a variable link control, ranging from IND (independent) to 50% through 100%. The variable linking allows combining of the left and right control voltages over a range, minimizing the interaction between channels, while still linking them to retain the stereo image.

From the Waves manual:

Sidechain lets you trigger the compressor using an external source, which is fed into the RMS detector and controls the compression of the input signal. Sidechain may only be used in New (Feed Forward) mode. An external sidechain trigger cannot be used in Old (Feed Back) mode; attempting to do so automatically switches the compressor to New (Feed Forward) mode.

Here are links. I won't even tell you what they are. Perhaps you'll read it should you not find someone that's willing to spoon-feed information to you a la The Matrix.
Perhaps...

API 2500 Stereo Compressor

http://www.apiaudio.com/man2500.pdf

API 2500

thanx !

[Strobian]

Originally Posted by Lagerfeldt

Fenderbender was merely trying to be helpful, and the settings for e.g. release should be the same for the software & hardware unit.

So let's not be unreasonable.

Yeah, but funny I posted the release specs a few times already?

[Lagerfeldt]

Ok, I wasn't aware. Nevertheless he was just trying to be helpful.

[Darius van H]

I would be careful about expecting a plugin to 100% mirror the hardware unit's settings..........for example, doesn't the Waves SSL comp have a analog / digital button?

Also, to answer the question "if the API has a faster release then the Smart", i don't see how numbers in a manual are gonna help you..........The "1ms" release time on 2 different compressors could mean very different things in reality.......you'd actually have to test them to know.........either by listening or scientifically.

[PrinsJan]

Originally Posted by Darius van H

I would be careful about expecting a plugin to 100% mirror the hardware unit's settings..........for example, doesn't the Waves SSL comp have a analog / digital button?

Also, to answer the question "if the API has a faster release then the Smart", i don't see how numbers in a manual are gonna help you..........The "1ms" release time on 2 different compressors could mean very different things in reality.......you'd actually have to test them to know.........either by listening or scientifically.

1-0 for the Nederlands ! Back to topic, to test an API in the Nederlands is pretty hard, what's your experience ?

[jdg]

even on the fastest release, the API2500 isn't that "fast"

[PrinsJan]

Originally Posted by jdg

even on the fastest release, the API2500 isn't that "fast"

No ?? hmmm, this is so important for me. In a lot of cases I need very slow attack and speedy release....another reason to go for trakkers or c2

[Strobian]

Originally Posted by PrinsJan

No ?? hmmm, this is so important for me. In a lot of cases I need very slow attack and speedy release....another reason to go for trakkers or c2

Generally a .05 ms release is pretty fast. How would you assume a 1ms release on a C2 is faster? (I'm just asking here) What other factors are involved to make a release faster or slower than its spec?

[PrinsJan]

Originally Posted by Strobian

Generally a .05 ms release is pretty fast. How would you assume a 1ms release on a C2 is faster? (I'm just asking here) What other factors are involved to make a release faster or slower than its spec?

I think this is a question to jdg, because he was the person who told this "even on the fastest release, the API2500 isn't that "fast"

[jdg]

send me a drum track.. i'll put it on the fastest release, slowest attack.
u'll see what i mean.

[Strobian]

Originally Posted by PrinsJan

I think this is a question to jdg, because he was the person who told this "even on the fastest release, the API2500 isn't that "fast"

Yeah sorry :)

[PrinsJan]

Originally Posted by jdg

send me a drum track.. i'll put it on the fastest release, slowest attack.
u'll see what i mean.

I'll will thanx, will upload this Monday and send you a pm

[PrinsJan]

Originally Posted by Strobian

Yeah sorry :)

[Strobian]

Originally Posted by PrinsJan

No ?? hmmm, this is so important for me. In a lot of cases I need very slow attack and speedy release....another reason to go for trakkers or c2

Every compressor is different, finding the sweetspot on an API might not be the same settings on a C2, i think you need them both

[heathen]

I own both and the C2 gets used more on the stereo buss than the api, like 10 times more often, I always test both but the Api is a lot gentler that the C2, the C2's attack and release are quite brutal compared with the api.

Get both.

[Cabbage]

This is interesting! I find that the release time of the 2500 seems pretty much constant no matter what setting you put it on. Of course there is a change, but not as much as any other compressor I have used. Anyone else feel this way?

Petter

[MattGray]

I've had experience with both & it really depends on what you're after. The C2 is generally too aggressive for mastering, it has it's place on the mix bus but even then you're only going to get one flavour of compression. The C2 tends to bring the upper mids forward the more it compresses & it can tend to get quite harsh, this is what people associate with the bottom end disappearing. It's not that you are losing much in the way of low end it's just the upper mids draw your attention away from the lows & the low end becomes tighter & more defined. The other thing I dislike about the C2 is that the image can tend to shrink somewhat the more you compress. Having said that it works great with rock material & helps if you need to give something cut & aggression while glueing the mix together. If you are going to use it on your mix buss, you would need to mix into it, otherwise it would change things too much if you whacked it on at the end. It can also be very useable as a parallel compressor which would be more suitable as a less aggressive sound for mixing or mastering in this role.

As for the API2500, I had the good fortune of trying one out yesterday & I was very impressed. It has a much wider range of sounds making it much more versatile as a mix or mastering compressor. The 'New' mode is fast & aggressive without changing the tonal character of the mix too much, yet it still seems to sound open & less squashed than the C2. The 'Thrust' feature is fantastic giving the compressor 3 different sounds which are all useable, the 'Med' thrust mode is great for keeping the bottom end punchy while not being too aggressive on the mids. The 'Old' function is simply fat, punchy & smooth, being a bit slower but without clouding up the low mids or without losing punch (in Med or Loud thrust modes). The stereo link is fantastic, I preferred it on either Independent mode or 50% & if the drums are causing the image to duck a little at times you can focus the linking on certain bandwidths using the filter section to avoid this issue.

All in all I was very impressed with the API2500, very versatile, great sound & good price. The only thing I missed was an auto release setting for those tricky mixes that can pump too much with a fixed release & I think they should've made it at least 2RU so they could spread the knobs out a bit & make them bigger. At the moment they feel a bit small & tightly spaced, although the construction is solid enough & I like the feel of the stepped pots.

I've got a Vertigo Sound VSC-2 coming in this week to try out & I'm keen to shoot it out against the API 2500. I'll do a report here (or in another thread) as soon as I'm done checking it out.

But back to your original topic, if it's versatility & a more punchy sound you're after check out the API2500. If you like aggressive biting compression with a upper mid presence check out the C2.

Hope this helps,

Matt

[duvalle]

Originally Posted by MattGray

All in all I was very impressed with the API2500, very versatile, great sound & good price. The only thing I missed was an auto release setting for those tricky mixes that can pump too much with a fixed release & I think they should've made it at least 2RU so they could spread the knobs out a bit & make them bigger. At the moment they feel a bit small & tightly spaced, although the construction is solid enough & I like the feel of the stepped pots.

that pretty much sums up my thoughts ...

[bluecouchstudio]

Matt,

Thanks for your review. I actually tried the 2500 when a friend of mine had one in awhile back. I loved it and remember pretty much what you describe. I'm about to order one this month and your review was helpful in remembering my experience with it.

--
lance

[chet.d]

Originally Posted by bluecouchstudio