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| | #1 |
| Banned Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Toronto
Posts: 1,678
Thread Starter | Mastering Without Clipping Converters Hey everyone. Who here doesn't clip their converters?...I guess I'm assuming that everyone is doing it....am I wrong...or is that yesterdays news? Let me know. Thanks. Nick |
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| | #2 |
| Gear addict Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: NYC
Posts: 416
| If you have to clip, say for example 1.5 to 2dB on peaks, to get where you want, I think it's best done in a digital device with a meter that reads above 0dB full scale, so you can a) see just how much clipping you are doing, and b) not slam the crap out of the analog stage of some poor defenseless ADC. I think clipping the ADC grew out of legacy operations that discovered clients would buy the hot level at a time before digital limiters and compressors were commonplace. I keep my levels to the ADC below clipping. My preference is not to clip, but if you have to do it, it's more controllable and manageable in the digital domain. |
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| | #3 |
| Moderator Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 3,352
Verified Member | I don't do it by default, but I do indeed clip the ADC on some percentage of projects. I also sometimes use digital clipping as Arf mentions using 2X sample rates, and still follow either with some limiting. I like to get a little here and a little there rather than try to do all my damage, um, er... level in one place. |
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| | #4 |
| Banned Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Toronto
Posts: 1,678
Thread Starter | bump |
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| | #5 |
| Lives for gear | We have to bump this already? After less than an hour...? Yeah, it happens occasionally, a dB or two caught by the HEDD's wonderful "I didn't really let it clip" circuitry.
__________________ John Scrip - Massive Mastering, LLC - www.massivemastering.com Spoon-feed a newb some answer and he'll mix for a day - Get him to *think* about it and figure it out for himself and he'll mix for a lifetime --- JS |
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| | #6 |
| Lives for gear Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Amsterdam
Posts: 1,716
Verified Member | If i need to clip, i'd rather do it in the DAW as part of the last stage process.........that way you haven't painted yourself into a corner if the client doesn't like it......i rarely if ever clip the converters. Although i never tested it, i don't have the impression that the converter clip process (as opposed to the DAW clip) gets you more level or sounds better......could well sound worse actually.
__________________ www.amsterdammastering.com |
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| | #7 |
| Lives for gear | What are you guys using to clip in the daw? |
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| | #8 |
| Lives for gear | If I must, I use Voxengo Elephant, in 4x oversampling clip mode. Sounds alright (as much as clipping can sound alright). |
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| | #9 |
| Gear interested Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 18
| I do it internally and check for intersample clipping before the DAC. |
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| | #10 |
| Gear maniac Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 266
| Why do you need to clip to begin with? |
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| | #11 |
| Lives for gear Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Florida
Posts: 648
| i've never done it. i was actually shocked to learn that this was even being done in mastering - I had heard some people deliberately doing it during tracking or mixing but is just seemed so wrong to do it in mastering - I was really surprised to find out its pretty common. |
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| | #12 |
| Lives for gear | |
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| | #13 |
| Motown legend Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Songwriter Gulch, Nashville TN
Posts: 10,636
Verified Member | If you take the time to match up levels for a listening test, it's amazing that people even go near the top few dB. of most converters. Yes, some of the high-end converters that have a big honkin' power supply and an analog stage before the A to D chip that has tons of headroom sound ok when occasionally clipped. The sound of A to D chips clipping under these specific circumstances shouldn't be confused with the sound of the cheap opamps found in most digital gear running out of steam. Mastering is about listening very carefully and not about mindless formulas involving clipping or signal processing.
__________________ Bob's room 615 562-4346 Georgetown Masters 615 254-3233 Music Industry 2.0 Interview |
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| | #14 |
| Gear maniac Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 266
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| | #15 | |
| Lives for gear Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Amsterdam
Posts: 1,716
Verified Member | Quote:
In the last few weeks i've done some tracks that were idiotically loud and distorted........it's what the clients wanted........i just smile and push the big red button. | |
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| | #16 | |
| Banned Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Toronto
Posts: 1,678
Thread Starter | Quote:
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| | #17 |
| Gear Guru Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Columbus, Ohio
Posts: 12,364
Verified Member | Hot levels are here to stay, it's about making them sound good. I was anti-clipping for a long time and no one said my levels were too low. Then one day I clipped accidentally and it sounded very good compared to every other option at those levels. Now I just listen, clip as needed, and never have too much trouble with hot levels that also work well musically. It's all about the AD and how it handles things, as was said. Clipping at tracking or mixing? Don't do it. ![]()
__________________ brian lucey magic garden mastering The Shins, Dr. John, The Black Keys, OAR, David Lynch, Sami Yusuf, moe., Hacienda, Jessica Lea Mayfield Spiral Groove Studio One mixing monitors |
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| | #18 |
| Lives for gear Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,114
| No doubt. Clipping at all before the very very very last thing that's done to the music is really pointless, because everything else after it either doesn't do much (a well designed limiter) or completely destroys the peak control (everything else). For digital clipping, clip very last, even after your brickwall limiter, with something like Elephant. (try 3x oversample, if you have a decent DA converter, i think you'll hear that it sounds better) For analog clipping, clip very last, and the don't let it hit 0db on your recording, and don't use any digital audio processing at all. And please please please don't clip more than once. ![]() |
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| | #19 |
| Banned Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Toronto
Posts: 1,678
Thread Starter | I'm finding that everyone (who is a mastering engineer) is doing it...is there anyone who isn't and is still living to tell the tale? |
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| | #20 | |
| Mastering Moderator Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Always on the Run
Posts: 2,564
Verified Member | Quote:
Maybe one day with a Lavry Gold I might even change my mind. ![]()
__________________ Velvet Room Mastering "Can you imagine how great the Beatles or Pink Floyd could have sounded if they had used better cables? I expect a Nobel prize to someday be awarded to an audiophile cable designer, as they clearly are way ahead of the rest of us. " - DC - | |
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| | #21 |
| Lives for gear | I do it. But only when they make me. ![]() I wish it would stop. I do see independent artists not caring so much anymore about ultimate loudness. Maybe it's because of the shift within the industry to be less radio dependent. -SD
__________________ ...My goal for many, many years was to obtain a beautiful API desk and be buried with it when I die... vin-gear ...My 57 is only a few years old, but I'd like to think that someday my children can pass it down to their children. Killahurts ...I would much rather tweak a moog than that thing bro... MYAMS |
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| | #22 |
| Gear addict Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: London
Posts: 344
Verified Member | I'm with Ricardo! I don't clip converters and use other methods of achieving the levels. I am also totally against the idea of delivering masters with no headroom so that interpeak modulation will clip the DAs on playback. This may sound OK on good converters, but is stretching the limits of what domestic DA converters (as found on CD Players, MP3 players or computers) can handle without producing the "harsh" sound that so many complain about! I am actually shocked to see that kind of clipping on CDs such as Radiohead's In Rainbows mastered by Bob "God of Mastering" Ludwig... It seems to be totally unnecessary. |
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| | #23 |
| Lives for gear Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: L.A.
Posts: 2,093
| I'm shocked to hear some of you guys don't clip at all. I guess if you're doing a jazz record or classical fair enough...trying to match anything super hot out there w/o clipping is IME impossible. Has any of you heard the latest Maroon5 album? Clip fest of unheard of proportions! ... I clip my lavry blue a couple dB right before my digital limiter. Its a bit on the bright side but for pop it works great. If I want it darker I'll clip inside sequoia by boosting the volume. |
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| | #24 |
| Lives for gear Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Seattle
Posts: 1,793
Verified Member | I don't do it intentionally.. if at all. My converters are in my computer closet and the only way I'll be able to tell if they're clipping is to walk out of the room to see if the little lights are twinkling!! Otherwise, I'll just listen and watch the meters! Regards, Bruce |
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| | #25 |
| Moderator Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 3,352
Verified Member | It hasn't always been, and there is a steep sonic price to play, but it is an unfortunate reality of doing business today. I still refuse to do it on many styles of music. It's mostly not worth it for music that doesn't have electric guitars or drum samples. |
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| | #26 |
| Gear Head Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 42
| I don't clip my converters (Lavry Blue, or Sonic 304). bob weston chicago mastering service |
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| | #27 |
| Motown legend Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Songwriter Gulch, Nashville TN
Posts: 10,636
Verified Member | |
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| | #28 | |
| Lives for gear | Quote:
Also, why 3x and not 4x oversampling in Elephant? I'll check that out... | |
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| | #29 | |
| Banned Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Toronto
Posts: 1,678
Thread Starter | Quote:
Nick | |
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| | #30 |
| Lives for gear Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: London, UK
Posts: 2,500
| .... and this is our front line in the loudness war ![]() |
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