Mastering Without Clipping Converters

[nickynicknick]

Hey everyone. Who here doesn't clip their converters?...I guess I'm assuming that everyone is doing it....am I wrong...or is that yesterdays news? Let me know. Thanks.

Nick

[arf]

Originally Posted by nickynicknick

Hey everyone. Who here doesn't clip their converters?...I guess I'm assuming that everyone is doing it....am I wrong...or is that yesterdays news? Let me know. Thanks.

Nick

If you have to clip, say for example 1.5 to 2dB on peaks, to get where you want, I think it's best done in a digital device with a meter that reads above 0dB full scale, so you can a) see just how much clipping you are doing, and b) not slam the crap out of the analog stage of some poor defenseless ADC. I think clipping the ADC grew out of legacy operations that discovered clients would buy the hot level at a time before digital limiters and compressors were commonplace. I keep my levels to the ADC below clipping. My preference is not to clip, but if you have to do it, it's more controllable and manageable in the digital domain.

[jayfrigo]

Originally Posted by nickynicknick

Hey everyone. Who here doesn't clip their converters?...I guess I'm assuming that everyone is doing it....am I wrong...or is that yesterdays news? Let me know. Thanks.

Nick

I don't do it by default, but I do indeed clip the ADC on some percentage of projects. I also sometimes use digital clipping as Arf mentions using 2X sample rates, and still follow either with some limiting. I like to get a little here and a little there rather than try to do all my damage, um, er... level in one place.

[nickynicknick]

bump

[MASSIVE Master]

We have to bump this already? After less than an hour...?

Yeah, it happens occasionally, a dB or two caught by the HEDD's wonderful "I didn't really let it clip" circuitry.

[Darius van H]

If i need to clip, i'd rather do it in the DAW as part of the last stage process.........that way you haven't painted yourself into a corner if the client doesn't like it......i rarely if ever clip the converters.

Although i never tested it, i don't have the impression that the converter clip process (as opposed to the DAW clip) gets you more level or sounds better......could well sound worse actually.

[planet red]

What are you guys using to clip in the daw?

[macc]

If I must, I use Voxengo Elephant, in 4x oversampling clip mode. Sounds alright (as much as clipping can sound alright).

[J_Carlo]

I do it internally and check for intersample clipping before the DAC.

[craigmorris74]

Why do you need to clip to begin with?

[gainstages]

i've never done it. i was actually shocked to learn that this was even being done in mastering - I had heard some people deliberately doing it during tracking or mixing but is just seemed so wrong to do it in mastering - I was really surprised to find out its pretty common.

[MASSIVE Master]

Originally Posted by craigmorris74

Why do you need to clip to begin with?

Whatever the last thing in line is with a "gain" knob on it.

[Bob Olhsson]

If you take the time to match up levels for a listening test, it's amazing that people even go near the top few dB. of most converters.

Yes, some of the high-end converters that have a big honkin' power supply and an analog stage before the A to D chip that has tons of headroom sound ok when occasionally clipped. The sound of A to D chips clipping under these specific circumstances shouldn't be confused with the sound of the cheap opamps found in most digital gear running out of steam.

Mastering is about listening very carefully and not about mindless formulas involving clipping or signal processing.

[craigmorris74]

Originally Posted by MASSIVE Master

Whatever the last thing in line is with a "gain" knob on it.

Hey John, I think you might have misunderstood my question. I'll rephrase: What is the benefit of clipping?

[Darius van H]

Originally Posted by gainstages

i've never done it. i was actually shocked to learn that this was even being done in mastering - I had heard some people deliberately doing it during tracking or mixing but is just seemed so wrong to do it in mastering - I was really surprised to find out its pretty common.

Believe me, sometimes you need to do it................we're there to give the client what they want.........sometimes that's a ridiculously loud mastering while retaining some semblance of punch.......that will have to come at the cost of distortion.

In the last few weeks i've done some tracks that were idiotically loud and distorted........it's what the clients wanted........i just smile and push the big red button.

[nickynicknick]

Originally Posted by Bob Olhsson

If you take the time to match up levels for a listening test, it's amazing that people even go near the top few dB. of most converters.

Yes, some of the high-end converters that have a big honkin' power supply and an analog stage before the A to D chip that has tons of headroom sound ok when occasionally clipped. The sound of A to D chips clipping under these specific circumstances shouldn't be confused with the sound of the cheap opamps found in most digital gear running out of steam.

Mastering is about listening very carefully and not about mindless formulas involving clipping or signal processing.

So are you saying you rarely clip your converters or never?

[lucey]

Hot levels are here to stay, it's about making them sound good. I was anti-clipping for a long time and no one said my levels were too low. Then one day I clipped accidentally and it sounded very good compared to every other option at those levels. Now I just listen, clip as needed, and never have too much trouble with hot levels that also work well musically. It's all about the AD and how it handles things, as was said.

Clipping at tracking or mixing? Don't do it.

[uncajesse]

No doubt. Clipping at all before the very very very last thing that's done to the music is really pointless, because everything else after it either doesn't do much (a well designed limiter) or completely destroys the peak control (everything else).

For digital clipping, clip very last, even after your brickwall limiter, with something like Elephant. (try 3x oversample, if you have a decent DA converter, i think you'll hear that it sounds better)

For analog clipping, clip very last, and the don't let it hit 0db on your recording, and don't use any digital audio processing at all.

And please please please don't clip more than once.

[nickynicknick]

I'm finding that everyone (who is a mastering engineer) is doing it...is there anyone who isn't and is still living to tell the tale?

[Riccardo]

Originally Posted by nickynicknick

I'm finding that everyone (who is a mastering engineer) is doing it...is there anyone who isn't and is still living to tell the tale?

Yes. I just don't like it.


Maybe one day with a Lavry Gold I might even change my mind.

[sonicdefault]

I do it. But only when they make me.

I wish it would stop. I do see independent artists not caring so much anymore about ultimate loudness. Maybe it's because of the shift within the industry to be less radio dependent.


-SD

[brethes@mac.com]

Originally Posted by Riccardo

Yes. I just don't like it.

I'm with Ricardo! I don't clip converters and use other methods of achieving the levels. I am also totally against the idea of delivering masters with no headroom so that interpeak modulation will clip the DAs on playback. This may sound OK on good converters, but is stretching the limits of what domestic DA converters (as found on CD Players, MP3 players or computers) can handle without producing the "harsh" sound that so many complain about! I am actually shocked to see that kind of clipping on CDs such as Radiohead's In Rainbows mastered by Bob "God of Mastering" Ludwig... It seems to be totally unnecessary.

[syra]

I'm shocked to hear some of you guys don't clip at all. I guess if you're doing a jazz record or classical fair enough...trying to match anything super hot out there w/o clipping is IME impossible. Has any of you heard the latest Maroon5 album? Clip fest of unheard of proportions! ...

I clip my lavry blue a couple dB right before my digital limiter. Its a bit on the bright side but for pop it works great. If I want it darker I'll clip inside sequoia by boosting the volume.

[DSD_Mastering]

I don't do it intentionally.. if at all. My converters are in my computer closet and the only way I'll be able to tell if they're clipping is to walk out of the room to see if the little lights are twinkling!! Otherwise, I'll just listen and watch the meters!

Regards,
Bruce

[jayfrigo]

Originally Posted by gainstages

I was really surprised to find out its pretty common.

It hasn't always been, and there is a steep sonic price to play, but it is an unfortunate reality of doing business today. I still refuse to do it on many styles of music. It's mostly not worth it for music that doesn't have electric guitars or drum samples.

[Bob Weston]

I don't clip my converters (Lavry Blue, or Sonic 304).

bob weston
chicago mastering service

[Bob Olhsson]

Originally Posted by nickynicknick

So are you saying you rarely clip your converters or never?

Only when its the best sounding alternative. I'm not afraid to try anything because what's best is very dependent on the mix.

[macc]

Originally Posted by uncajesse

For digital clipping, clip very last, even after your brickwall limiter, with something like Elephant. (try 3x oversample, if you have a decent DA converter, i think you'll hear that it sounds better)

I've always found it better before the limiter, catching the bigger peaks and 'gently' smoothing it out before it hits the limiter.

Also, why 3x and not 4x oversampling in Elephant? :) I'll check that out...

[nickynicknick]

Originally Posted by DSD_Mastering

I don't do it intentionally.. if at all. My converters are in my computer closet and the only way I'll be able to tell if they're clipping is to walk out of the room to see if the little lights are twinkling!! Otherwise, I'll just listen and watch the meters!

Regards,
Bruce

Ok I have to comment on this...you should really have your converters visible...I want to say more, but that should be enough.

Nick

[MarkRB]

.... and this is our front line in the loudness war