Mastering Without Clipping Converters

[sanddigger1]

Originally Posted by Lupo

Red hot chili peppers, dani california (single), track 1: OVERLOAD in regular metering(set to indicate this at 1 sample over), +0.8 and +0.9 in oversampled metering

how is it possible ?

I recently found a CD with approx +0.8dB peak level (and not occasionnally). (I need to digitally reduce it by -0.8 to have it stop overloading)

I do not understand how something can go over the last available bit. Can somebody explain ?

[living sounds]

The intersample peaks result from the waveform reconstructed of the samples. If you can, try out an audio editor like Audition that shows the reconstructed waveforms. It will all become clear.

[sanddigger1]

I think I've understood the intersample clipping. But I thought that normal metering taking place before the D/AC couldnt go over 0.

[MAzevedo]

Originally Posted by sanddigger1

I think I've understood the intersample clipping. But I thought that normal metering taking place before the D/AC couldnt go over 0.

This is true, which is why you have to be careful. Your meters can show no overs, yet you still might hear distortion once it goes back to analog.

[sanddigger1]

so how can normal metering overload ?

[MAzevedo]

What exactly do you mean by "normal metering"? If you mean digital, non-oversampling metering, then it will call some number of consecutive full-scale samples (usually 1 or 2) "over". If you clip, and then after clipping drop the level 0.1dB, the you will have no full-scale samples (but lots of consecutive samples at -0.1dB), and you won't see any overs on the meters. However, if the analog stage after the D/A doesn't have the headroom to deal with the amplitude of the reconstructed waveform (which will have peaks greater than full-scale), you could still hear distortion on playback.

[sanddigger1]

In fact, Lupo called it 'regular metering'. I mean metering before the DAC, previous any wave reconstruction.
What I was trying to say is that I 've got a CD which overloads, without more audible distortion than the one its squashed modern low end mastering produces. If I reduce the output level of the player, it still overloads as long as I dont reduce the level by 0.8 dB.
That's what I dont understand.
With every other CD which hits 0 FS, reducing by 0.1 dB is enough to avoid hitting 0 (as you said, and as I was expecting), but not with this particular one.


EDIT : I extracted the audio : the peak level is 0FS, and playback in the editor was absolutely normal (reducing by 0.02 dB was enough to stop hitting 0). I should have started by doing this test. It is a problem with the player, which happens only with this CD (maybe because it is heavily clipped ?). So, no discovery of a 'over full scale coding'. Thanks to anyone who has tried to help me. This intersample clipping thread is very useful and interesting.

[nickynicknick]

Originally Posted by DSD_Mastering

Besides looking at the meters, I thought you were supposed to master with your ears?

Regards,
Bruce

funny. I guess meters are so irrelevant that they shouldn't exist?. Especially in mastering suites. Really...what kinda shit is that?

[nickynicknick]

Wow a lot of replies...kinda moved off topic a bit, but still Ok. Thanks for all your input. So in the end (if this is) most of you clip converters. In fact, it seems to be the way you master records these days. Very interesting. I do not recall anyone saying outright that they don't clip converters.

Nick

[Paul Frindle]

Originally Posted by nickynicknick

Wow * lot of replies...kind* moved off **pic * bit, but still Ok. Th*nks for *ll your input. So in the end (if this is) most of you clip converters. In f*ct, it seems ** be the w*y you m*ster records these d*ys. Very interesting. I do not rec*ll *nyone s*ying outright th*t they don't clip converters.

Nick

There's been lots of discussions about this and I have been involved in a good few. From experience, most modern productions cause intersample peaks that may cause overload on playback. and the sound of that overload will be different depending on the kit playing it back. The listener can improve things slightly if they have CD/DVD player with an internal digital volume control you can wind down, but really it's a nightmare IMHO.

[SafeandSound]

I don't or plan to clip convertors in, out, plugs or the output meter of a DAW.

Some music benefits from an average level increase, some doesn't.

We can ask why do we have to clip audio? Then you can choose to do it or not. It's extreme increases in level which have the worst side effects in terms of distortion and loss of transients. Extreme anything is rarely any good for very long.

[Paul Frindle]

Originally Posted by SafeandSound

I don't or plan to clip convertors in,out, plugs or the output meter of a DAW.

Some music benefits from a average level increase, some doesn't.

We can ask why do we have to clip audio?, then you can choose to do it or not. It's extreme increases which have the worst side effects in terms of distortion and loss of transients. Extreme anything is rarely any good for very long.

Yes - clipping can actually sound great and was particularly used (in the days of analogue) on drum attacks and such to add some harmonic 'punch' to the transients in an otherwise soft sounding track. The thing is that in digital you can only get away with this if the level is reduced afterwards to prevent odd and sometimes unpredictable things happening down line. Essentially clipping in the digital domain is not really legal.

[zboy2854]

Originally Posted by Paul Frindle

Essentially clipping in the digital domain is not really legal.

Perhaps we should have a loudness "prison" for the worst offenders...do not pass Go, do not collect your mastering fees...

[Paul Frindle]

Originally Posted by zboy2854

Perhaps we should have a loudness "prison" for the worst offenders...do not pass Go, do not collect your mastering fees...

LOL - the thing is that you can have the sound of clipped instruments, but they cannot be at full level in the mix. If you wind them down to -3dB or less then normally they will be preserved when played out.

[sonicdefault]

Originally Posted by Paul Frindle

Yes - clipping can actually sound great and was particularly used (in the days of analogue) on drum attacks and such to add some harmonic 'punch' to the transients in an otherwise soft sounding track. The thing is that in digital you can only get away with this if the level is reduced afterwards to prevent odd and sometimes unpredictable things happening down line. Essentially clipping in the digital domain is not really legal.

Hi Paul!

I was wondering when you would show up! (i saw your earlier post too) Congrats on the new company! Hint AU Hint


-SD