Mastering Without Clipping Converters

[Sunbreak Music]

I haven't, but generally work on material that doesn't require it.

But I'm not opposed to it, if that's what it takes.

[lucey]

Originally Posted by MarkRB

.... and this is our front line in the loudness war

There is no front line here ... it's in the hearts of men. Good luck with that! The only thing we can do is make it sound good, and that's always a unique, fine line.

[MarkRB]

It seems we are stuck in the classic "well, if your friends jumped off a cliff would you do it too?" situation.

[Bang]

A few years back I was on here talking about how I clipped my converters during mastering and that I rarely used any limiting at all. Man was I flamed. Good to see that people are coming to reality.

[lucey]

Originally Posted by MarkRB

It seems we are stuck in the classic "well, if your friends jumped off a cliff would you do it too?" situation.

It's not that clear ... it's about taste, fears, etc ... even marketing ... not bridges with defined lines. And if that were the case, the MEs is pushed off.

Clipping is like anything else ... if it sounds bad it is bad. The difference between clipping and something we accept as taste, like eq, is maybe DA quality, but it's not so hard to judge that in the studio. Californication, Bowie's Reality and Audioslave I in the choruses sound awful here too. They sound better in the car, so that's taste again.

[MarkRB]

Originally Posted by lucey

It's not that clear ... it's about taste, fears, etc ... even marketing ... not bridges with defined lines. And if that were the case, the MEs is pushed off.

Clipping is like anything else ... if it sounds bad it is bad. The difference from eq is maybe DA quality, but it's not so hard to judge that in the studio. Californication, Bowie's Reality and Audioslave I in the choruses sound awful here too. They sound better in the car, so that's taste again.

I'm not denying there is "palletable on a basic level" stuff out there. But I do think as ME's you guys should be not be hoping that most of your listeners cannot hear the damage that is being done.
I appreciate it's a tricky situation because if you don't do it, someone else will.
I just wonder where it will end.

[sonicdefault]

Originally Posted by lucey

It's not that clear ... it's about taste, fears, etc ... even marketing
...

Brian, this is so true. I was literally thinking fear, and then I saw it in your post! I think the desire for a track to be noticed above the noise is what got the trend started, and then it all became an issue of "what if we don't...?" Then, here come the cliff jumpers. It's kinda ironic that the very people who know most about music and sound (speaking of the industry as a whole, not just MEs), are the ones who put their music in such a precarious position over a few decibels.

On a side note, I've found it disturbing how the loudness wars has crept into some tv commercials. Anyone around here been asked to crank up the volume for tv spots? I think this has a reverse effect. It seems most people seem to be quite sensitive to their tv volume, and the first thing that usually happens when a extra loud commercial comes on, is a quick reach for the mute button on the remote.


-SD

[jayfrigo]

Originally Posted by Bang

A few years back I was on here talking about how I clipped my converters during mastering and that I rarely used any limiting at all. Man was I flamed. Good to see that people are coming to reality.

Just because it's reality doesn't mean it's good. Reality doesn't make distortion any less distorted.

[lucey]

Fear and insecurity drives the train on more levels than we'd like to admit. It's a sad reality when those with the power to reach out through music repeatedly give that power over to others less in touch with music's potential, and even lose contact with the source in themselves. There is a line in the sand for dynamics and distortion, for everyone and every project, and I often push that line to the edge as I'm sure we all do ... but I keep looking for and believing in a line.

Originally Posted by sonicdefault

On a side note, I've found it disturbing how the loudness wars has crept into some tv commercials. Anyone around here been asked to crank up the volume for tv spots? I think this has a reverse effect. It seems most people seem to be quite sensitive to their tv volume, and the first thing that usually happens when a extra loud commercial comes on, is a quick reach for the mute button on the remote.

For sure ... Tivo baby. A friend does music for TV in LA and they ask him for modest levels and full dynamics. It was my assumption that commercials were simply slammed with compression/limiting at broadcast???

[Bang]

Originally Posted by jayfrigo

Just because it's reality doesn't mean it's good. Reality doesn't make distortion any less distorted.

I don't get distortion from clipping converters, but I do get a good sound that is more reminiscent of the original mix then by using a limiter. If you are distorting, things are wrong. By wrong I mean driving a mix that doesn't have a balanced frequency and isn't dynamically stable, or driving it way too hard.

[jordanstoner]

I don't get distortion from clipping converters

Isn't that like saying, "I don't go blind from stabbing myself repeatedly in the eye sockets"?

Not to derail this thread, but if the original question was "How many of you are clipping your converters?", then I have to ask - "What percentage of mixes do you get that are already slammed and clipping the DAC at unity, or full of inter-sample peaks?" Does the "don't clip twice" stigma still hold true in this case?

It seems I speak to an amazing amount of mix engineers that are slamming their mixes (via L2 or whatever) and intentionally clipping digitally before sending to mastering - any thoughts / comments on the insurgence of this practice?

[Bang]

No its not like saying that at all.

To say you will get distortion from clipping is like saying that every time you get into your car you're going to crash.

Sure you'll crash if you don't know what the f you are doing. But if you can drive, you'll get to your destination, no problem.

As for you second thoughts... I HATE HATE HATE when I get mixes that are crushed be it with an L2 or clipped.... I really will never get why some unexperienced mixers will slam their mixes making the mastering process near impossible and making the final product sound like crap. Loudness should come in mastering, not mixing.

[lucey]

From a musical standpoint, digital limiters and limiting via clipping are options on the same field of play, judged by results. A combination of small, multiple moves often gets the best results, as the replies here support.

Most people doing the better mixing don't clip mixes, and mixers that are open to learn can be weened, if they do it already. Generally I ask the mixer for another pass with no clipping or limiting and go from there, nuff said. If needed an A/B can be used.

"Don't clip twice" is one idea, but not a dogma that always works. Making it sound as good 'as possible' means sometimes another stage of clipping can work better. Sometimes more distortion is more musical ... true in tracking and mixing, and even in mastering.

[Darius van H]

Originally Posted by jordanstoner

It seems I speak to an amazing amount of mix engineers that are slamming their mixes (via L2 or whatever) and intentionally clipping digitally before sending to mastering - any thoughts / comments on the insurgence of this practice?

Isn't that like having a w*nk just before going to a wh*re? (not that i've ever done the latter i hasten to add!)

[sonicdefault]

Originally Posted by lucey

...

For sure ... Tivo baby. A friend does music for TV in LA and they ask him for modest levels and full dynamics. It was my assumption that commercials were simply slammed with compression/limiting at broadcast???

It seems there are commercials lately that push the loudness factor more than ever before. I'm not suggesting that they're clipping and pushing it to the levels found in music. It's probably more noticeable because of the inconsistency between commercials. But some are obnoxiously loud.


-SD

[Ged Leitch]

Im with Bang on this,

As usual on web boards, things are misinterpreted and/or not understood properly.

Obviously distortion can be overdone if clipping -

Bottom line is - if it works ... it works!!

There was a really good A/B test that (I think) Dave Collins did over at PSW
a few years ago - he uploaded two different masters of the same mix.

One that was Limited

One that was clipped.

It really WAS funny when certain folks got what they thought was the limited one WRONG.In actual fact - although they didnt know it yet - most preffered the clipped one over the limited version.

And the clipping was done tastefully with no noticable distortion.

[squeegybug]

Originally Posted by Ged Leitch

uploaded two different masters of the same mix.

One that was Limited

One that was clipped.

I have done these tests with digital clipping (Weiss) vs. limiting (Waves hardware) and found the signals to null.

Although as a matter of course I do not clip converters or upsamplers. After all I am a member of Turnmeup.... might get me kicked out

Steve

[Ged Leitch]

Cool, but this was a different test mate,

I think DC used TC6000 (for clipping) and Waves L2 Hardware.

[Darius van H]

Weiss, TC6000?......that's some expensive gear folks are using to flat-top a wave!

[arf]

Originally Posted by Ged Leitch

Cool, but this was a different test mate,

I think DC used TC6000 (for clipping) and Waves L2 Hardware.

IIRC, the test was TC6000 Brickwall vs. L2 Brickwall vs. simple digital clipping.

For the track in the test most perferred the simple clipper.

[Ged Leitch]

Originally Posted by arf

IIRC, the test was TC6000 Brickwall vs. L2 Brickwall vs. simple digital clipping.

For the track in the test most perferred the simple clipper.

Cheers ARF, couldn't find the thread to link to

[jayfrigo]

Originally Posted by Bang

I don't get distortion from clipping converters, but I do get a good sound that is more reminiscent of the original mix then by using a limiter. If you are distorting, things are wrong.

If you are clipping, you are getting distortion. There's no way around it. Whether it becomes obvious or objectionable in a specific instance is another story. That's where the intention of your response goes right.

The absolutes are the problem. In addition obviously to using one's ears, without getting the full story, how can people make educated decisions? The distortion may indeed be pretty benign and sound better than a limiter for a particular application, but there's no free lunch in this business, and no one-size-fits-all solution.

By wrong I mean driving a mix that doesn't have a balanced frequency and isn't dynamically stable, or driving it way too hard.

Then I guess we had better only get jobs from people who give us great mixes. (I wish!)

[DSD_Mastering]

Originally Posted by nickynicknick

Ok I have to comment on this...you should really have your converters visible...I want to say more, but that should be enough.
Nick

Besides looking at the meters, I thought you were supposed to master with your ears?

Regards,
Bruce

[krytikal1]

Originally Posted by DSD_Mastering

Besides looking at the meters, I thought you were supposed to master with your ears?

Regards,
Bruce

but i got this new program on a shareware site that shows me the eq i need to do. why would you want to use your ears anymore


K

(btw....i like the if it sounds good it sounds good theory.....if it don't, it don't.)

[bluejay]

well, about clipping - all part of the much touted - and unfortunately very real "loudness wars". I've just finished mastering the first album I've done in a while with no clipping at all. It's probably about 2db softer in "apparent" volume than my three previous albums - I think it sounds great, but well see what the Itunes crowd (that is, commercial reality) thinks.
yes, it's got plenty of limiting and no lack of all manner of expensive gear, both analog and digital. but people clipping Lavrys and that ilk of converter is damn common these days. the problem being many "hit" records are the worst offenders - thereby encouraging the practice. I often point this out, Out Kast's "speakerboxx" record is the "loudest" I've ever heard - look at the audio - it's clipped all the way down the whole album! squarewave city! but it was the biggest record of that year, so what can you say? it jumps out of an ipod or tv speaker, but will take your head off if listened to on a "high end" stereo. so - here I am - about to put my balls on the line by turning it down a couple db... the whole thing is out of control, but you can't fight city hall, not if you do this for a living...

[brethes]

Originally Posted by jordanstoner

... I have to ask - "What percentage of mixes do you get that are already slammed and clipping the DAC at unity, or full of inter-sample peaks?" Does the "don't clip twice" stigma still hold true in this case?

It seems I speak to an amazing amount of mix engineers that are slamming their mixes (via L2 or whatever) and intentionally clipping digitally before sending to mastering - any thoughts / comments on the insurgence of this practice?

Yes, unfortunately, this seems to be a rising trend and is much more an issue than whether clipping in mastering is here to stay. Because of inexperience, lack of time or budget while mixing, more often than not the "mix approval" version with the L2 slammed or with heavy clipping is the version I receive and is unfortunately very often the only one available to work with...

[arf]

Originally Posted by bluejay

well, about clipping - all part of the much touted - and unfortunately very real "loudness wars". I've just finished mastering the first album I've done in a while with no clipping at all. It's probably about 2db softer in "apparent" volume than my three previous albums - I think it sounds great, but well see what the Itunes crowd (that is, commercial reality) thinks. ...

That 2dB can make a big difference in the quality of your master. It's barely a touch on the volume control of an iPod. IME, my lower level more dynamic masters have done better commercially. I don't think I've ever heard someone say "I'm going to buy (or listen) to that song because it's loud." Assuming a good song and production, the better it sounds the more it gets played.

[bluejay]

Originally Posted by arf

That 2dB can make a big difference in the quality of your master. It's barely a touch on the volume control of an iPod. IME, my lower level more dynamic masters have done better commercially. I don't think I've ever heard someone say "I'm going to buy (or listen) to that song because it's loud." Assuming a good song and production, the better it sounds the more it gets played.

That's the thing - I don't think anyone actually "says" anything - BUT - every year for some years now, many of the best selling pop, r&b, and electronic records are bananas "loud" and clipped! Alicia Keys latest springs to mind... but it's more common than not now - it's just a matter of degree. So everyone's gotten used to it to the point that now "classic" records (take the recent Led Zeppelin reissue for example) are remastered to be "competitive" because they seem polite against even a "quiet" modern record to the uninformed (read 16 year old) ear. I'm a professional (20 years now) producer/artist - and it is literally agonizing to me - with every record, to figure out how far is far enough. How much of a "compromise" is too much, or just the right amount for "now", and what the market requires to stay in the game. Not to mention the fact that the commercial record industry is on it's knees!

[Bang]

I see no point to any argument. When you want to make a mix louder with the least amount of artifacts then turn the mix up into a good A/D. Its been done on about 90% of the records you've bought over the last 10 years, no biggie.

[jordanstoner]

Originally Posted by jayfrigo

If you are clipping, you are getting distortion. There's no way around it.

Bang - that's all I meant in my initial post. The definition of clipping is analogous to distortion, so I was confused when you mentioned "clipping without distortion." Perhaps a better interpretation is "clipping without audible degradation or artifacts"?