how to send a client a finished sequence of album to burn ?

[stealthbalance]

hello all !

i would like to find the best way to send my clients a sequence of an album ive done or mixed for them pre mastering - say if i want to do a rough album sequence of the album with a certain order of songs , or some rough mixes i want to have the client hear on the other side of the world etc. i could always just easily send them the individual files of course , but that would be in the order and spacing i want. i need for it to have id's and everything so they hit burn and they get the exact full cd i prepared - like what i get from sterling with e-mastering software. i use stuff like toast and jam no prob , but i burn a cd for them right then and there and all is fine , but if i want to send them that sequence in that order , and possibly with crossfades etc , thats what i want. red book auth would be cool too. any advice?
sorry for the rookie question ... much thanks !

s

[zenmastering]

I send files to clients, but they've been prepared for this purpose:

The DAW I use (Pyramix) let's me import a CD or CD Image file into the timeline, including the CD track markers. Once this file is imported, I place cuts in the audio such that the resultant clips extend from a start marker to the next start marker. This would then include the time between the stop marker and the subsequent start marker. Basically, each new clip includes the gap at it's end

I render these clips and then send them as WAV files to a client, with the track number preceding the track title. They would load them into iTunes (with the auto-gap, crossfade and sound enhancer turned off) and presto: they get the same order and spacing as my original.

There are other ways, using Toast, etc. but the above method works 100% of the time (as long as those above-mentioned iTunes 'features' are off.)

It's also faster to do than to explain...

Graemme

[inlinenl]

just make the audio cd ... burn an image with that with NERO on PC ... put the image on the FTP-server .. they will download it .. and burn the image to an audio cd ... you could ZIP or RAR the image file ..

now some mac advice for this guy ...

[XARC Mastering]

Since Toast can write/read Nero CD Images, MAC is covered as well with that procedure.

[skuttbergsveen]

Originally Posted by inlinenl

just make the audio cd ... burn an image with that with NERO on PC ... put the image on the FTP-server .. they will download it .. and burn the image to an audio cd ... you could ZIP or RAR the image file ..

now some mac advice for this guy ...

The only thing you'll miss is ISRC and CD-Text, right?

[bkuijt]

Originally Posted by zenmastering

...

I render these clips and then send them as WAV files to a client, with the track number preceding the track title. They would load them into iTunes (with the auto-gap, crossfade and sound enhancer turned off) and presto: they get the same order and spacing as my original.
...
Graemme

Last week I purchased Daniel Lanois' new album from his label website in 44.1/16 bit download. He delivers it exactly like you describe.
Works excellent (even I managed )

Does anybody know if an ISO image is possible with audio CD's?

[stealthbalance]

thanks for the replys all. im on a mac btw. i guess i was hoping for an easier way for the masses but i guess this is easy enough for sure. i assume this will also work even if i have long crossfades between songs , as long as the id is in the right place.
thanks again
s

[Cellotron]

Cue Sheets definitely provide an easy solution for this as on PC there a good number of apps - including freeware ones such as the excellent Exact Audio Copy - Introduction » Exact Audio Copy - that can burn Red Book spec CD-R masters from them. Basically a cue sheet is just a small ascii text file that has all subcode and toc information indicated to it that links to either one or many wav files - and it's fairly easy to give clients step by step instructions that are simple enough for them to follow so that they can easily burn masters remotely without having to buy additional software. If the client isn't engineering savvy I still always recommend having myself burn the masters though.

Best regards,
Steve Berson

[jdg]

on the mac side, toast can use cue/bin format aswell

[stealthbalance]

btw , on my mac, i just dragged the disk image i made from jam , into toast ( set to audio ) , burned it and its perfect. if i were to send that same disk image to someone who only works on a pc computer , could they drag that onto whatever disk burning software they use on their pc and get the same great results?

s

[Cellotron]

Originally Posted by stealthbalance

btw , on my mac, i just dragged the disk image i made from jam , into toast ( set to audio ) , burned it and its perfect. if i were to send that same disk image to someone who only works on a pc computer , could they drag that onto whatever disk burning software they use on their pc and get the same great results?

s

No, afaik they couldn't. I don't know of any PC based app that can load Jam images.

Best regards,
Steve Berson

[streaky]

Can I just say one thing : Jam images sound like crap. Don't ask me why, they just do compared to realtime audio played direct to a CD drive.

Though I appreciate the original poster is asking about option for Digital delivery, so Jam is an option. But it's a crap sounding option.

[jdg]

orly?

jam images are just SDII files with fancy resource forks to tell the computer its a jam image.

[brethes@mac.com]

Originally Posted by streaky

Can I just say one thing : Jam images sound like crap. Don't ask me why, they just do compared to realtime audio played direct to a CD drive.

Though I appreciate the original poster is asking about option for Digital delivery, so Jam is an option. But it's a crap sounding option.

Err...maybe when burned at the wrong speed on a faulty burner with dodgy media, ...yes, maybe!

Otherwise when handled correctly they are just fine and will cancel out in a null test with the original source! After all they are just SDII with extra data.

Please correct me if I am wrong and there is verifiable proof that Jam images won't sound identical to the source. I am curious to know as I have been using this format for quite a few years without any problems.

[Andy Krehm]

Originally Posted by zenmastering

I send files to clients, but they've been prepared for this purpose:....I place cuts in the audio such that the resultant clips extend from a start marker to the next start marker. This would then include the time between the stop marker and the subsequent start marker. Basically, each new clip includes the gap at it's end

I render these clips and then send them as WAV files to a client, with the track number preceding the track title. They would load them into iTunes (with the auto-gap, crossfade and sound enhancer turned off) and presto: they get the same order and spacing as my original.

There are other ways, using Toast, etc. but the above method works 100% of the time (as long as those above-mentioned iTunes 'features' are off.)

It's also faster to do than to explain...

Graemme

I don't have a lot of faith in the average client's technical skill so I use the same method when sending the first version of the masters.

If they want to adjust the spaces further, I'll just send clips of about 30 sec. of track 1 into 20 sec. of track 2, etc, etc. and render them into 1 or 2 files. If the masters are already approved, this can even be done with mp3's, if in a hurry.

There is no need to bother with cue sheets, etc., unless the client is cutting their own master, something I NEVER encourage.

I have learned from experience that there is no reason to believe that the average client can burn a bit accurate CD from my downloaded masters and therefore was motivated to provide a program by program set of instructions, much like you have for iTunes, on my website.

[jayfrigo]

Originally Posted by jdg

orly?

jam images are just SDII files with fancy resource forks to tell the computer its a jam image.

In my experience jam images sound fine when done properly. You can get screwed up burning them in toast or even jam with some of the options they give you if you don't realize they are on, but there's nothing inherently wrong with the format. Then again, I've never created one from scratch with jam, just with sonic, so that may be part of my success.

Here's a tip for sending jam images: make a .sit archive. If you use .zip (a pc-centric format) or just send it as-is through an internet server (usually unix or sometimes windows) it will strip the mac resources and it won't be recognized by toast/jam and won't work. A stuffit archive knows how to deal with old-school mac files and will preserve the fork.

[streaky]

Sorry let me clarify my hastily written post!

If I make a master using Sonic Studio, exporting the Jam file either 1x or 2x, then burn using Toast in my Mac G4's internal disc drive, it doesn't sound as good as when I run it out real time into my Plextor drive. I don't know about scientific proof that Jam files sound different to source, but I trust my ears.

Of course, it could be anything from the Jam file itself, Toast, the Mac CD drive, whatever. But I just don't like giving clients Jam files if I can avoid it.

[Cellotron]

Originally Posted by Andy Krehm

There is no need to bother with cue sheets, etc., unless the client is cutting their own master, something I NEVER encourage.

I usually don't encourage this either - but the word "never" is a little strong to me in that I have a few clients who are quite accomplished engineers in their own right that have no difficulties creating in spec CD-R masters themselves. Obviously you really need to know your client in this regard.

Best regards,
Steve Berson

[sanddigger1]

Originally Posted by bkuijt

Does anybody know if an ISO image is possible with audio CD's?

ISO images are only possible with data CDs.

[dynomike]

Originally Posted by sanddigger1

ISO images are only possible with data CDs.

right, unfortunately. most people have some version of Nero so .nrg files seem to work pretty well. (i burn a redbook cd, then rip it with nero to a single .nrg file)

i wish that i could avoid the step of burning a cd and ripping it, ie. have a 'virtual burner' show up as a drive in sequencing programs. like what adobe acrobat does as a 'virtual printer'.

[Andy Krehm]

Originally Posted by Cellotron

I usually don't encourage this either - but the word "never" is a little strong to me in that I have a few clients who are quite accomplished engineers in their own right that have no difficulties creating in spec CD-R masters themselves. Obviously you really need to know your client in this regard.

Best regards,
Steve Berson

OK, almost never! Of course I also have a small number clients that i would trust to do this do this but interestingly enough, they hardly ever want to be responsible for making a final master.

My main point is that I learned over time that my assumption that everyone could make a bit accurate CD was wrong and that it's safer to assume that there is a good chance that they will screw it up!

Every new client receiving notice that their masters are uploaded to our FTP site also gets our link with instructions on how to burn a bit accurate CD. Currently the list is up to 6 programs and we intend add more whenever someone is using another program not listed.

[stealthbalance]

hhmmm..
ok - is there any program that i can use on my mac, that i can use to make a disk image to send to Anyone , pc or mac, to burn a redbook real deal cd with proper id's etc?
if not , can someone please invent one. why is this stuff so difficult ... its 2008 !
thanks again for all your responses-
s

[jayfrigo]

Originally Posted by stealthbalance

hhmmm..
ok - is there any program that i can use on my mac, that i can use to make a disk image to send to Anyone , pc or mac, to burn a redbook real deal cd with proper id's etc?
if not , can someone please invent one. why is this stuff so difficult ... its 2008 !
thanks again for all your responses-
s

Well, you could ouput a DDP from Sonic's entry level program, PMCD, and the person on the other side would also need PMCD since DDP images can't be burned by things like toast. But for $475 apiece, you can do it. I don't know of a cheaper way to make DDPs or burn CDs from them. That way they can make the CD-ref from the actual image file that the plant will use to make the replicated discs. Can't get any closer than that!

[Chris Kress]

Quote:
Originally Posted by inlinenl View Post
just make the audio cd ... burn an image with that with NERO on PC ... put the image on the FTP-server .. they will download it .. and burn the image to an audio cd ... you could ZIP or RAR the image file ..


--- The only thing you'll miss is ISRC and CD-Text, right?

Anybody know?

[inlinenl]

Hi Chris,

why should you loose ... you burn an image .... I'll have to upload a cd today/tomorrow to colombia ... and we'll see ... but for sure I can say ... isrc and cd-text will be there ...
the audio cd is made with wavelab/montage .. all the codes/isrc/cd-text/ are there ... from that audio-disk you make a 1:1 nero disk image ..... so all should be there NERo does not care what's in/on the disk ... it should just stupidly/exactly copy bit by bit to an image ....

just burn the image again to a cd-r and you'll see ... cd-text etc. will be there ...

[anguswoodhead]

The other issue is of course quality of disk, oh and quality of burner.
I don't trust anyone to burn a final Replication Master except me and other 'good' mastering guys.
I would rather risk posting it across the globe than trusting a client to download it and burn the image correctly.
Of course if his 5000 discs come back sounding like crap you all know who he will blame - right?

[inlinenl]

sending a PMCD do colombia is around $ > 150,00 ... some strange insurrance thing .... first we started sending disks ... you should see the packages from colombia getting in here .....

finally my clients can handle FTP .... I trust them making the PMCD ..... otherwise .. Hé.... take it easy it's south america ..

off the record ... these people from colombia can play guitars and drums !!!!!! having fun ...

[fenderbender.]

ARGGGHHH.... Lotsa misinformation in this thread! I'll try my best to clear it up.

1. Who cares about Jam images? It's a weird format that would only be of use to someone who also had Jam. Not to be a dick, but Jam has little to do with the OP's question.

2. You cannot use any 'ol program to make an image of an audio CD. The error correction used on an audio CD places lots of redundant data on the disc. Some programs will discard this data and will output a file of only PCM audio. Others will make an image containing the data from every sector. Difference being whether or not they include subcode data in the image. Now you can start to see how CD-Text and ISRC's could be saved with an image, or could not, all depending on the program that reads the disc.

Not all images are created equal. See the IsoBuster user manual for more info. on the different types of images of an audio CD (RAW vs. ...)

3. Now to the writing side of things. Not all burners will write CD-Text and/or ISRC's. Some will do it, but the application used to burn will not. Other times a problem with the (ASPI) layer can interfere. The point is - subcode data will always be an X factor unless you have knowledge of the system that's used to burn the disc.


Exact Audio Copy is the best app. to read audio CD's. The gap settings allow it to do exactly what Graemme is doing - minus having to wait on Pyramix. "Append gaps to previous track" is the option. Now use that setting and make a CUE sheet with the setting "Multiple Files With Gaps (Noncompliant)". Same thing as doing it in Pyramix. Those files can burned using any software provided that no pauses are inserted and the order is kept. For more daring uses of the track index, stick to a CUE sheet. If there isn't a free program for Mac that will burn using a CUE sheet ...well... What do you expect with 6% of the U.S. desktop computer market?


Just kidding... On Mac OS X try xACT for ripping and Burn burning. On Windows use Exact Audio Copy for ripping (see above) and burrrn for burning.

Any questions?

[jayfrigo]

Originally Posted by fenderbender.

ARGGGHHH.... Lotsa misinformation in this thread! I'll try my best to clear it up.

1. Who cares about Jam images? It's a weird format that would only be of use to someone who also had Jam. Not to be a dick, but Jam has little to do with the OP's question.

2. You cannot use any 'ol program to make an image of an audio CD. The error correction used on an audio CD places lots of redundant data on the disc. Some programs will discard this data and will output a file of only PCM audio. Others will make an image containing the data from every sector. Difference being whether or not they include subcode data in the image. Now you can start to see how CD-Text and ISRC's could be saved with an image, or could not, all depending on the program that reads the disc.

Not all images are created equal. See the IsoBuster user manual for more info. on the different types of images of an audio CD (RAW vs. ...)

3. Now to the writing side of things. Not all burners will write CD-Text and/or ISRC's. Some will do it, but the application used to burn will not. Other times a problem with the (ASPI) layer can interfere. The point is - subcode data will always be an X factor unless you have knowledge of the system that's used to burn the disc.


Exact Audio Copy is the best app. to read audio CD's. The gap settings allow it to do exactly what Graemme is doing - minus having to wait on Pyramix. "Append gaps to previous track" is the option. Now use that setting and make a CUE sheet with the setting "Multiple Files With Gaps (Noncompliant)". Same thing as doing it in Pyramix. Those files can burned using any software provided that no pauses are inserted and the order is kept. For more daring uses of the track index, stick to a CUE sheet. If there isn't a free program for Mac that will burn using a CUE sheet ...well... What do you expect with 6% of the U.S. desktop computer market?


Just kidding... On Mac OS X try xACT for ripping and Burn burning. On Windows use Exact Audio Copy for ripping (see above) and burrrn for burning.

Any questions?

Sounds complicated.

As far as a client making the "PMCD" referred to earlier in the thread (erroneous use of the term PMCD in this context, but not significant to the point) it sure seems safer and easier to just ftp the DDP set to the replication plant.

For a client ref, that's a different story since most clients can't handle DDP images. Still, any image file you decide to make will need to be readable by your client. If they're on a Mac, Jam image is fine since Toast is a very common app (you don't need Jam). If you decide to make a Nero image, your client needs to be on PC. No matter what, you first need to see what the client can handle.