otari 5050 1/2" for mastering?

[jimmydeluxe]

hey guys,

would picking up one of these help warm stuff up for me post DAW, or would it more than likely be a waste of time/money since i know nothing about tape?

thanks

[Cellotron]

I have a couple clients who mix to 1/4" 2-track on their Otari MX5050's and their results generally sound very good. While not necessarilly the "best" - if they are in good shape and calibrated correctly then they definitely can be reliable and provide good sounding results - and the fact that they are the one analog reel deck still currently being made means that it's slightly easier to get parts and support for them than other options.

Best regards,
Steve Berson

[Greg Reierson]

I've had a few 5050s over the years. I think I would opt for straight digital over the 5050.


GR

[Cellotron]

Originally Posted by Greg Reierson

I've had a few 5050s over the years. I think I would opt for straight digital over the 5050.

For most of my own projects I'd probably actually do the same. Re-reading the initial post I don't know whether it's necessarilly the deck I'd choose as a "warmer" - but I do in fact that the Otari decks are sometimes underestimated - i.e. I've definitely heard good stuff that was recorded on them.

Best regards,
Steve Berson

[bob katz]

Originally Posted by jimmydeluxe

hey guys,

would picking up one of these help warm stuff up for me post DAW, or would it more than likely be a waste of time/money since i know nothing about tape?

thanks

Otari made a 1/2" 5050? I think not... not that model. It was 1/4". This is a middle-of the road transport, not Otari's top model. It is not easy to get at the alignment and its internal block diagram is the japanese idea that you can never have too many preamp stages and too many attenuators! I suggest a better transport.

[Greg Reierson]

Originally Posted by bob katz

Otari made a 1/2" 5050? I think not... not that model.

I've seen at least two 1/2" 5050 decks. One was a 1/2" 4 track 5050 used to cut bin loop masters. The second was a very old 8 track with a rack of outboard electronics. Both noisy dogs.

You can find a decent MTR series Otari for not a lot these days. Night and day difference.


GR

[Seditionary]

I'm going to go look at an Otari 5050 today that plays half inch and can be converted to 1/4. It is being sold for 200 dollars, two new 1/2 inch tapes included and they say the heads are clean.

All of these machines are really noisy though? Is it not worth the time? Thanks!

Originally Posted by Greg Reierson

I've seen at least two 1/2" 5050 decks. One was a 1/2" 4 track 5050 used to cut bin loop masters. The second was a very old 8 track with a rack of outboard electronics. Both noisy dogs.


GR

[Seditionary]

even though this is the mastering forum -- i would be using the 5050 machine to dump drums, guitars, etc to it... not so much for mastering. just for some tape manipulation sound out of and back into the daw.

thanks!

[Greg Reierson]

It would be fine for that purpose and it's a good price. Make sure it works well and sounds good.

[lucey]

Originally Posted by Greg Reierson

I've had a few 5050s over the years. I think I would opt for straight digital over the 5050.


GR

I agree ... used to record bands to one, not very pretty, not very cool for a mastering world.

[lucey]

Originally Posted by GANGI

even though this is the mastering forum -- i would be using the 5050 machine to dump drums, guitars, etc to it... not so much for mastering. just for some tape manipulation sound out of and back into the daw.

thanks!

Ah ...

For that, dont dump after AD, that adds two conversion passes and misses out on what's cool about tape, the initial effect on a source coming from the preamp ... so track through it and then line up the file after the fact.

Monitor the SYNC out, so no latency issues, but run the REPRO to the DAW, then slide.

[MASSIVE Master]

Originally Posted by jimmydeluxe

hey guys,

would picking up one of these help warm stuff up for me post DAW, or would it more than likely be a waste of time/money since i know nothing about tape?

thanks

At the risk of going sideways somewhere -- Most of the time when I hear "warm up" this and "less digital" that, it's from people who are either using questionable gear, questionable gain-staging ("as hot as possible without clipping" is NOT the way to get good sounding tracks, no matter what the manual might say) and overdriving the input chain, or just bad-sounding sources.

Don't get me wrong here - I love tape. But "that tape sound" is the grind of the pepper (not even the type of pepper) on the steak. Put as much pepper as you want on a bad steak and it's just going to make you sneeze.

If your recordings are lacking "warmth" then look into WHAT you're recording and HOW you're recording it. I know more than a few people who tried running a U87 into a Eureka (or what not) and wound up with a "cold" or "sterile" or dare I say "digital" sounding vocal. Try putting a SM7b or a FatHead through an API or a Fearn or maybe a Chandler and try getting anything but "smooth" and "warm" out of it. It's a better steak.

Tape is great if everything else is wonderful. Otherwise, it can very easily be far more trouble than it's worth.

[bob katz]

Originally Posted by MASSIVE Master

At the risk of going sideways somewhere -- Most of the time when I hear "warm up" this and "less digital" that, it's from people who are either using questionable gear, questionable gain-staging ("as hot as possible without clipping" is NOT the way to get good sounding tracks, no matter what the manual might say) and overdriving the input chain, or just bad-sounding sources.

Absolutely. To add to Massive points, digital has come a long way since the days of very bad converters and when we didn't know that much about how to/how not to apply processing to digital recordings. We learned that transparent digital is accurate, but so accurate that any of our practices are extremely exposed. So we learned we had to use really good preamps, mikes and miking techniques, good monitoring, and conservative processing, which will get you a lot closer to "warm" than applying a soggy tape bandaid on top of bad processing and/or bad outboard and converters.

When done well, 30 IPS 1/2" should sound so transparent that it adds the most subtle enhancement to a good recording and has no obvious down sides. That's what you should look for to tape, not an automatic warmer for bad digital recording practices.

Yes, there are people who use analog tape as more than a little "glue" but as part of their attitude processing... In that case, anything goes, but hopefully not by accident, but rather by intent or design.

[Jerry Tubb]

Originally Posted by Greg Reierson

I've seen at least two 1/2" 5050 decks. One was a 1/2" 4 track 5050 used to cut bin loop masters. The second was a very old 8 track with a rack of outboard electronics. Both noisy dogs.

You can find a decent MTR series Otari for not a lot these days. Night and day difference.

I often used an 8 channel 1/2" Otari 5050 back in the early '80s, during my electronic music days, along with numerous Revox B77s doing tape loops, an early ARP 2600 synth doing ring modulation, and other fun nutty techniques. Wish I had some pics of that lab!

Here's a y*utube of someone else's machines:

YouTube - Otari MX-5050 MK-III Brothers

Agreed they're not high end mastering decks, but workhorses nonetheless.

Cheers JT

[Seditionary]

I ended up getting the Otari 5050, 4 track mkiii -- ran some sound through it and recorded it. seemed to play back fine and really added some interesting, fat sounding compression to what the guy was passing through it -- some of mj's thriller. ha. one of the pinch rollers lightly bounced on the tape, but it didn't really seem to affect the recording or play back. the line inputs on the back didn't work though, but the outputs worked and the inputs at the front of the machine worked for quarter inch "mic" inputs. he sold it to me for $80 with a roll of quarter inch tape thrown in and two half inch tapes... no reels though as the guy is making a giant clock out of them?, ... need to pick some up.

anyways, i brought it in to a repair shop that seems pretty good and they said it would be 375 dollars to bring the otari back to spec! they said the heads are in great shape (which is something i was serious about checking for), but they said the alignment is a bit off, and also the electronics need to be lined up?, and the pinch roller costs 125 just for the part. the guy who sold it to me said you can put some electrical tape on the pinch roller to keep it from skipping and the repair people said that is rubbish advice. do you guys think it is worth it to fix up at that price? does anyone know where to pick up cheaper pinch rollers? honestly, the tape did hick-up once or twice a tiny bit when thriller was being played back... but i loved the sound of it "messing up". however, i obviously wouldn't like that happening in all applications... but those little hick-ups reminded me that having the machine just to be able to manipulate tape speed on an instrument would be so great. that effect alone would be worth the 180 plus reels i thought... but another 375 to fix it up?

would love to hear any opinions. thanks so very much.

[bob katz]

Originally Posted by GANGI

I ended up getting the Otari 5050, 4 track mkiii -- ran some sound through it and recorded it. seemed to play back fine and really added some interesting, fat sounding compression to what the guy was passing through it -- some of mj's thriller. ha. one of the pinch rollers lightly bounced on the tape, but it didn't really seem to affect the recording or play back. the line inputs on the back didn't work though, but the outputs worked and the inputs at the front of the machine worked for quarter inch "mic" inputs. he sold it to me for 180 with a roll of quarter inch tape thrown in and two half inch tapes... no reels though as the guy is making a giant clock out of them?, ... need to pick some up.

I personally never heard of a 1/2" 5050. But anyway, I'm assuming you got a 1/4" machine. But this is a 4 track 1/4" machine? YES, get the pinch roller replaced if it's the least bit sticky. Whoever told you to put electrical tape on the pinch roller, stay 200 miles away from him.

There is no cheaper pinch roller. Welcome to the world of maintaining ancient analog tape machines. If you can't afford a $125 pinch roller or keeping the machine's transport and alignment in shape, then please don't try to use it for anything serious...

BK

[Greg Reierson]

I would think twice about buying an analog machine if I couldn't do 95% of the maintenance and repair work myself. A thumping pinch rolled makes the deck useless. Pass on it. You've only seen the tip of the maintenance iceberg...

[Adam Dempsey]

Originally Posted by GANGI

one of the pinch rollers lightly bounced on the tape, but it didn't really seem to affect the recording or play back.

It has more than one pinch roller/capstan? Or do you mean one of the tension/tape guides?

[The Pool PDX]

I love my 1/4 5050. But it took me a while to figure out it isn't good on
every mix. Definitely quieter and more clear, dynamic recordings seem
to do better going straight to my Masterlink. But take a punk or noisy garage
band and squash it on a 1/4 deck and it's magical.

Alignment is a pain and make sure your heads aren't out of phase.

[crochambeau]

Originally Posted by GANGI

and the pinch roller costs 125 just for the part.

Do a google search for "Terrys rubber rollers", I'm about to have a pinch roller (same 1/2" transport MK5050 MKIII-8) rebuilt for less than a third of that price..

Sorry for the derail, I'm not a bad man, just easily distracted..

[Seditionary]

Originally Posted by bob katz

I personally never heard of a 1/2" 5050. But anyway, I'm assuming you got a 1/4" machine. But this is a 4 track 1/4" machine?
BK

Love your work Bob, so sorry to disagree with you, but yes it is a 4 track 1/2" mk-iii 5050. I can post some photos if you're interested. Maybe it was custom made for Universal Studios as that is supposedly where the guy got it from. There is still a tape that reads "Dialogue" below track 1

Originally Posted by Greg Reierson

I would think twice about buying an analog machine if I couldn't do 95% of the maintenance and repair work myself... You've only seen the tip of the maintenance iceberg...

I'm 25, so grew up in the digital age. Would love to learn how to maintain the machine myself though, alignment, etc. Is there a good website you'd recommend as far as maintenance goes? Would love to learn! Especially if there will be more repairs to come...

Originally Posted by crochambeau

Do a google search for "Terrys rubber rollers", I'm about to have a pinch roller (same 1/2" transport MK5050 MKIII-8) rebuilt for less than a third of that price..

Thanks so much for this tip! I guess I'll be sending my pinch roller into Terry

Thanks ya'll.

[Seditionary]

these old machines are 3 pin hot -- so had to switch and solder all the plugs from 3 to 2... but now that i fixed the phase, it is sounding great now! need to re-align the heads soon though as it seems to speed up a tiny, tiny bit over time now when aligning it with my daw tracks.

also, how often should you demag the heads? i haven't found a demagger for it yet, but probably should...

[Seditionary]

also -- terry's rubber rollers worked out great! and saved me lots of money! thanks so much!!!

[lucey]

Originally Posted by GANGI

... how often do you demag the heads? i haven't found a demagger for it yet, but probably should...

Han D Mag


Every so often.

[Adam Dempsey]

Originally Posted by GANGI

need to re-align the heads soon though as it seems to speed up a tiny, tiny bit over time now when aligning it with my daw tracks.

That's not the heads, it's overall speed determined by the capstan. Or, more to the point, that's just analog(ue) tape!
(fwiw, I'd never heard of a 1/2" MX5050 either. 1/4" 2-trk, 1/4" 4-trk or 1/4" 1/4 trk - yes).

[lbruun]

Originally Posted by GANGI

I'm 25, so grew up in the digital age. Would love to learn how to maintain the machine myself though, alignment, etc. Is there a good website you'd recommend as far as maintenance goes? Would love to learn! Especially if there will be more repairs to come...



Thanks ya'll.

This teac pdf is a good and easy read for starters:

http://personal.inet.fi/koti/mieite/kaavat/teac.pdf