Mastering 16 bit files in PT...use a 24 bit session?

[kushan_ku]

I think the answer is yes.. but.. I'm importing 16 bit files to be mastered in Pro Tools. There will be some processing going on, so I think I've read here that I should use a 24 bit new session for the mastering so my plug ins work at their best.. then on the final bounce dither to 16 bit. Correct?

[zacheus83]

I may be totally wrong here, but I read somewhere (hint: a book by Bob Katz) that if a file is already 16 bits, converting it to 24 bits will only add blank bits with no information on the last 8 bits.

It makes since to try to process everything at 24 bits when you want to add plug-ins, but if I recall correctly, Pro Tools requires all files imported to be converted anyways. The best rule of thumb is to try to keep the file at 24 bit as long as possible; from pre-production through mastering, and dither at the very last step.

[bob katz]

Originally Posted by zacheus83

I may be totally wrong here, but I read somewhere (hint: a book by Bob Katz) that if a file is already 16 bits, converting it to 24 bits will only add blank bits with no information on the last 8 bits.

It makes since to try to process everything at 24 bits when you want to add plug-ins, but if I recall correctly, Pro Tools requires all files imported to be converted anyways. The best rule of thumb is to try to keep the file at 24 bit as long as possible; from pre-production through mastering, and dither at the very last step.

Funny you should mention it :-). The key here is that the OUTPUT of the PT's mix bus should be captured at 24 bits regardless of what wordlength the source files are. You ONLY need to put this into a 24 bit session if you intend to capture the mix into the tracks (bounce to a track) OR overdub some new 24 bit tracks. Otherwise you can mix contentedly to a 24 bit file from your 16 bit session.

I also have some rude words in the book about PT and DP's limitations and the arbitrary need to have a so-called "24-bit session" in the first place. Modern DAWs (!!!!) can intermix any file format they wish.

Sooner or later Digidesign will have to rewrite Pro Tools completely from scratch to be able to do these things and keep up with the more modern DAWs. The problem I hear is that the old code is so fragile they don't want to fix what ain't broke. A good idea...

BK

[dannygold]

Originally Posted by bob katz

I also have some rude words in the book about PT and DP's limitations and the arbitrary need to have a so-called "24-bit session" in the first place. Modern DAWs (!!!!) can intermix any file format they wish.

BK

Maybe in the 3rd edition you can remove said rude words in reference to MOTU... DP lets you freely mix bit depths in version 5!

[Bob Olhsson]

I happen to think digidesign's idiot-proofing of Pro tools with regard to bit depth is a good thing. I've seen far too many train wrecks with projects done in "more flexible" applications.

[kushan_ku]

Ok so let me see if I have this right:

1. My source files are 16-bit stereo tracks
2. I'm importing them into Pro Tools. My PT session should be 24 bit.
3. I am going out via AES to a HEDD, thru my analog chain, then back into PT via HEDD AES
4. Recording onto a new stereo track in PT...
5. The stereo mastered files will now be 24-bit. Don't dither yet.
6. I'm using Sonic PMCD. Import the 24 bit masters. Dither while creating DDP.

Does that sound right?
BTW I love the book Bob.. I have it...I'm still just easily confused!

[bob katz]

Originally Posted by Bob Olhsson

I happen to think digidesign's idiot-proofing of Pro tools with regard to bit depth is a good thing. I've seen far too many train wrecks with projects done in "more flexible" applications.

That may be true, but I can guarantee you that Digidesign did not do it on purpose. The architecture was made limiting in the beginning and they could not undo what was done.

BK

[bob katz]

Originally Posted by dannygold

Maybe in the 3rd edition you can remove said rude words in reference to MOTU... DP lets you freely mix bit depths in version 5!

Cool. Somebody's listening.

Mastering engineer's need flexibility and would not like to use an architecture like PT that does not freely permit intermixing source files. For mix engineers I can see Bob O's concerns, though I'd like to hear more about the "trainwrecks" that Bob O. cites with other applications. I personally like the flexibility.

BK

[kushan_ku]

Bob - any feedback on this? Thanks!

Originally Posted by kushan_ku

Ok so let me see if I have this right:

1. My source files are 16-bit stereo tracks
2. I'm importing them into Pro Tools. My PT session should be 24 bit.
3. I am going out via AES to a HEDD, thru my analog chain, then back into PT via HEDD AES
4. Recording onto a new stereo track in PT...
5. The stereo mastered files will now be 24-bit. Don't dither yet.
6. I'm using Sonic PMCD. Import the 24 bit masters. Dither while creating DDP.

Does that sound right?
BTW I love the book Bob.. I have it...I'm still just easily confused!

[zacheus83]

Originally Posted by bob katz

Cool. Somebody's listening.

Mastering engineer's need flexibility and would not like to use an architecture like PT that does not freely permit intermixing source files. For mix engineers I can see Bob O's concerns, though I'd like to hear more about the "trainwrecks" that Bob O. cites with other applications. I personally like the flexibility.

BK

That's why I stopped at Pro Tools 7.4 and just bought Logic 8 last week! I know it's gonna be a tough learning curve (I've used Pro Tools since 5.3). My buddy at Guitar Center has been showing me all the wonderful mixing and mastering possibilities with Logic for almost 2 years. I finally just broke down and got it!

p.s. I also just finished reading the last chapter of this book, and plan to start over at chapter 1 first thing tomorrow. Very interesting stuff, agree with 80% of it, and couldn't really grasp a couple of the concepts (mid-side, etc...). The K system is quite an excellent idea...

Originally Posted by kushan_ku

Bob - any feedback on this? Thanks!

Hey Kushan, I'll give you a for that path in terms of 24bit file to start with. It won't hurt anything to start the new session at 24 bit, but if you start at 16 bit and you wanted to D/A convert and then A/D convert a file to add analog processing, you would be stuck at 16 for the new inputted file. Cheers and good luck!

[kushan_ku]

Originally Posted by zacheus83

Hey Kushan, I'll give you a for that path in terms of 24bit file to start with. It won't hurt anything to start the new session at 24 bit, but if you start at 16 bit and you wanted to D/A convert and then A/D convert a file to add analog processing, you would be stuck at 16 for the new inputted file. Cheers and good luck!

Right on - so I guess in this case (with my 16 bit source files) there is no benefit to start with a new session at 24 bit, based on the above. I was under the assumption that any plug ins, fades and such would be better off in the 24 bit realm; I think that was the concern...

[zacheus83]

Originally Posted by kushan_ku

Right on - so I guess in this case (with my 16 bit source files) there is no benefit to start with a new session at 24 bit, based on the above. I was under the assumption that any plug ins, fades and such would be better off in the 24 bit realm; I think that was the concern...

Actually the opposite is true! You may have mis-understood my response. You SHOULD start your new session at 24 bit, import the 16 bit files (you won't gain or lose any sound quality here), DAC, process the sound through your analog gear, ADC (this is where you benefit from 24 instead of 16 bit), add eq, comp, crossfades, and whatever else is needed, and then dither and bounce to CD.

Basically, Bob was saying that the output bus in Pro Tools is the point in which the sound is either recorded to a medium (hard drive, CD-ROM) or converted to Analog (TRS or XLR output), and it is at this point where you generally benefit from a 24 bit file over a 16 bit file. If you were to import a 16 bit file and not change anything about the file, and export it, you would not "gain" any sound advantage at 16 bit or 24 bit. However, when you add processing in Pro Tools, the plugin (depending on the manufactures spec) will pull the file up to 24, 32, or even 48 bit to process it, but automatically bring the file back down to 16 (or 24) in order to play inside the session. Waves plugins offer a dither option and so do some of Pro Tools' plugins. This is also in Bob's book (chapter 4)

hope this helps!

[Bob Olhsson]

The best reason to convert them to 24 bit files is that you can use Audiosuite to fix breath pops and sibilance. It's been a decade since destructive processing slowed anybody down very much and disk space is not an issue when 500 gigs costs $99.