Gaps between songs on vinyl pre-master?

[Darius van H]

A question to all those with vinyl cutting experience:

I've got to make a vinyl pre-master from an already sequenced album.......the gaps between tracks are very short and the songs mostly stop and start ubruptly.

Is there a sort of rule-of-thumb for how short gaps should be on vinyl in order for the various songs to be apparent when looking at the record?

Thanks!

[bob katz]

Originally Posted by Darius van H

A question to all those with vinyl cutting experience:

I've got to make a vinyl pre-master from an already sequenced album.......the gaps between tracks are very short and the songs mostly stop and start ubruptly.

Is there a sort of rule-of-thumb for how short gaps should be on vinyl in order for the various songs to be apparent when looking at the record?

Thanks!

With warning ahead of time, the cutting engineer can start the banding even before the previous tune ends to get a more obvious visual indication on the disc. That solves your issue AND keeps the spaces as originally intended.

Are the short gaps really that necessary? Can you spread it out before you send it in for disc cutting?

BK

[streaky]

The cutting engineer should be looking closely at the time on the CD/DAT player so he doesn't get it wrong, and it also depends on how long a scroll he sets on his lathe. All this does is add land between grooves for where you put your track markers in, so if he knows he's going to cut a side that will be short on space, or if he knowsyour gaps between tracks will be short, he'll set a short scroll between tracks and everything should be fine.

Though as a safeguard, including a PQ list or track list with gap lengths specified with your master would not hurt a bit.

[Paul Gold]

I cut sides with crossfades all the time. I load everything into the DAW so I can see where the track markers are if I get an audio CD. If I get a data file I mark it according to the log. It's no problem even if cutting from a CD. You just set the timer to countdown and hit the spiral at 0:00.

[Darius van H]

Guys, thanks a lot..very useful info!

So what you're saying is that, even with a short gap (or even a crossfade), you (the vinyl cutting wizard) can just adjust the width between grooves at that point (presumambly making it wider?) to give the visual indication of the song positions?

So in other words, i don't have to do anything with the gaps......only provide an accurate PQ list?

(i would rather not be responsible for adjusting the track gaps as i'm sure many an artist or band get very attached to how their album is sequenced!)

[Cellotron]

Originally Posted by Darius van H

Guys, thanks a lot..very useful info!

So what you're saying is that, even with a short gap (or even a crossfade), you (the vinyl cutting wizard) can just adjust the width of groove at that point (presumambly making it wider?) to give the visual indication of the song positions?

In general the width of the "spirals" (also known as a "marker") while indeed variable from fairly wide (taking about 2 seconds to cut) to very narrow (just some milliseconds to cut) - are set with a control on the lathe prior to starting the cut, and generally this isn't changed during the cutting. I believe some lathes do in fact allow you to set for two different settings - a wider one for track markers, and a narrower for "indexes" - but these controls aren't commonly used.

In general narrow spirals are used for long sides to conserve available "land" while with short sides like 12" singles where there is only 2 - 3 tracks per side wider spirals are used to make it easier for DJ's to see them when spinning.

So in other words, i don't have to do anything with the gaps......only provide an accurate PQ list?

Yup. Cutting engineers just drop them in on the fly based on your PQ list and the timing counter running on their source transport (i.e. DAW, DAT, CD player, analog reel deck). Since the spirals need to be dropped in on the fly by the cutting engineer hitting a button to initiate the sprial - their isn't a huge amount of precision as to their start and end points - although with a little practice it's easy to be able to drop them in at the second point they are supposed to appear.

The only downside of having markers at crossfades or during narrow timing gaps is that the spiral might not get placed at the exact desired point (i.e. it could vary by a 1/2 second or so), and that there will likely be sound occuring during the spiral (which generally should not be an issue at all).

(i would rather not be responsible for adjusting the track gaps as i'm sure many an artist or band get very attached to how their album is sequenced!)

Then just provide the cutting engineer with a clear PQ sheet and don't worry as they deal with these types of things all the time.

Best regards,
Steve Berson

[Yann Dub]

yes , you don t have to do anything as it is only visual : the space between the grooves is bigger , only that !!!
the guy who will cut your record will just have to press a switch usualy call "time"

what you can do to help him is a detailled listing of those "time".

Yann

[jamsmith]

You need to keep those gaps wide so they can be properly read by a programmable turntables. For those who never saw one, it had a lazer that read the gaps and allowed you to program the order the tracks were played. I never saw one until about 1991 when someone brought one into my shop for repair.