Radiohead 'In Rainbows' mastering - vinyl vs CD

[mahasandi]

Vinyl is great. ( if you like it)

Sounds like your more bummed by

the mastering not the cd format.

[uosdwis]

Absolutely, yes. CDs are fine by me, but not like this! The one reason for me to go vinyl would be that the format simply does not allow this kind of abuse.

[Mass Appeal]

I agree. Took a listen through the album over the weekend, and was very surprised at how loud the whole record had been mastered. Shame.

[recall]

There's still some headroom on that waveform

[themaidsroom]

the vinyl package is out of sight - i have not yet heard it, but
the 2 disc 45 r.p.m. version i inspected looked great.

the package was like nothing i have ever seen.


be
well


- jack

[Adam Dempsey]

Apparently for "Hail to the Thief" there was a huge difference between the CD and the 45rpm vinyl (which you'd expect, from the mastering process more so than the format itself). Although whether this is actually Nigel Goodrich...

I'm yet to hear them but I'd like to think the new 12" 45rpm versions are also mastered properly for the format, not simply cut from a release CD like many vinyl records are - you'd be surprised.

[jhg]

I'm listening to vinyl right now. Sounds amazing. I can't stop gushing about it. Arrived on Tuesday.

Putting the CD of extra tracks on after listening to the vinyl is disappointing. Same with the album CD. Truly a gorgeous recording. The cymbals ring out, guitar sounds are more realistic, like pushing some air through a nice old beat up amp. The whole thing just makes more sense.

My roomate, a visual artist, was listening to the vinyl, after listening to the mp3s plenty of times on my somewhat-decent stereo system(pro-ject turntable, rotel preamp, old HK tube amp, tannoy speakers) and got it immediately. I was curious and did some volume matched a/b tests, it wasn't even close. There was just something about hte vinyl that makes you go "aaaah, yes" Whereas the digital equivalent gave more of an on edge feeling, not nearly as pleasant. Yes, I know, soley qualitative.

The only downside is that to change my tuntable from 33 to 45 rpm I have to remove the platter and move the belt.

I am curious if the vinyl was mastered/cut from the 1/2" or something. There is a lot more there.

Regards,

jhg

[uosdwis]

Great to hear, jhg.

I'm torn between being a bit pissed about the ruined CD and being very fond of the album, so I'm again considering ordering the box set. It's not so much the money that stops me as the principle of the thing. But, I can see myself returning to it in the future when I'm better set up for vinyl. I can picture it now, a brandy and possibly a cigar and a big leather chair and my butler drops the needle and oh it'll be like hearing it for the first time...

But it still feels a little... wrong. Still, hoping for a more dynamic DVD-A/SACD remaster of their albums is probably futile, but from Amnesiac on they all need it as far as I'm concerned.

Until then, if a vinyl rip surfaces on the net I can't say I won't not be not considering checking it out. Or not.

[bmanic]

I think we need a new trend like those "parental advice!" stickers were 10-20 years ago. We need a sticker on CDs that say "Not Destroyed in Mastering!" or "Dynamics Intact!".

Cheers!
bManic

[andsonic]

Here's my question:
This is Gearslutz, we have a significant population of European users. Perhaps one of us lurking is someone involved in the project. I would love to hear an explanation from the Radiohead camp for the different mastering styles done to the vinyl & the CD.

[MarkRB]

It was only mastered once, then sent to a cut. They may have adjusted it but only for technical reasons, not for sonic reasons.

[twwalsh]

Originally Posted by MarkRB

It was only mastered once, then sent to a cut. They may have adjusted it but only for technical reasons, not for sonic reasons.

yes, it's likely that the cd and the vinyl are the same "master"...probably the only difference is that the vinyl was cut from the pre-dither 24 bit files. this is pretty common practice, actually. only SOME of the time do they bother to use anything other than the 16 bit cd master files to cut vinyl masters! weird.

tw

[arf]

Originally Posted by twwalsh

yes, it's likely that the cd and the vinyl are the same "master"...probably the only difference is that the vinyl was cut from the pre-dither 24 bit files. this is pretty common practice, actually. only SOME of the time do they bother to use anything other than the 16 bit cd master files to cut vinyl masters! weird.

tw

Does anyone here have both? Would it be possible to post some samples or snapshots of the waveforms?

[Adam Dempsey]

I'd like to hear more on this, too.
Interesting, the absence of a mastering credit on Hail to the Thief. Adam Nunn at Abbey Rd did the vinyl cut. The late Chris Blair worked on most of the previous albums.

I totally love bypassing this & that when it comes to mastering a vinyl version, and yeah, usually cut from 24/48k files.

[Adam Dempsey]

Originally Posted by twwalsh

yes, it's likely that the cd and the vinyl are the same "master"...probably the only difference is that the vinyl was cut from the pre-dither 24 bit files. this is pretty common practice, actually. only SOME of the time do they bother to use anything other than the 16 bit cd master files to cut vinyl masters! weird.

Also depends on what's made available to the mastering engineer by the record company, if it's not mastered concurrently with the CD version. Unfortunately.

[twwalsh]

yeah, the record label often decides with the vinyl manufacturer...i will refer you to this interview i did with bob weston where i tell a story about one of my records getting mastered from the cd, much to my chagrin:

Interview: Bob Weston of Chicago Mastering Service & Shellac

[MarkRB]

Originally Posted by MarkRB

It was only mastered once, then sent to a cut. They may have adjusted it but only for technical reasons, not for sonic reasons.

I'm sorry I was thinking of another album when I wrote this (it was late..) I don't know if the above is true of InRainbows.

[scraggs]

Originally Posted by Boomshanka

Interesting, the absence of a mastering credit on Hail to the Thief.

didn't bob ludwig do that one?

[Cellotron]

When I cut the vinyl DMM masters for the first "special edition" release of the 45rpm 4-LP set for the Foo Fighters "In Your Honor" album the producers made a big deal out of wanting to have an "audiophile" release and made sure that I could work from 24bit/96kHz source (which I was able to do at Europadisk due to SAWStudio sending to a matched pair of Lavry Blues that went to both the pitch depth computer and the cutting head) and that I did as close to a flat transfer from these as possible.

I was disappointed to find that the high res files I received from Bob Ludwig for the most part had been heavily clipped as they were the same files (just prior to SRC and dithering) that the CD master was made from. I was a little bit "star struck" at the time, plus the label was in an extreme rush, and didn't want to rock the boat (as I was hoping to receive future business) by requesting less limited files - and instead just cut reference discs and sent them to the producers - and since they loved the results it was a non-issue. Still I regret not requesting new files - as I ultimately think cutting from 16bit/44.1kHz source that hadn't been clipped would have sounded a lot better than cutting from 24bit/96kHz source that had. In the end the pressing plant (33-1/3 in PA - now out of business) did a poor job of plating, pressing and packaging making about 1/2 of the records made for this release noisy anyway - which also defeated the goal of "audiophile" quality.

SO - just an example of how sometimes the best intentions to make a vinyl release have the highest quality mastering can get defeated by what happens both "upstream" and "downstream" of the actual cutting.

Best regards,
Steve Berson

[twwalsh]

Thanks for that story. I think this is a very common practice. And like you said, even hi-res versions of the cd master are often not appropriate for vinyl.

[uosdwis]

Thanks Steve, for sharing that experience. From what I understand Bob Ludwig mastered 'In Rainbows' so the scenario you describe may very well have repeated itself here. Shame.

I sure am glad we managed to get a hold of 'Kid A' before Radiohead decided to turn to Mr. Ludwig (he's done them all since then - even got a grammy for HTTT), all with the same results. 'Kid A' without dynamic range would've been unlistenable. Saying this makes it sound like the world's premier mastering engineer is a complete hack, which we all know isn't true. But I do find the whole thing difficult to understand.

[Paul Gold]

Originally Posted by Cellotron

and instead just cut reference discs and sent them to the producers - and since they loved the results it was a non-issue.

SO - just an example of how sometimes the best intentions to make a vinyl release have the highest quality mastering can get defeated by what happens both "upstream" and "downstream" of the actual cutting.

Maybe he sent you the right files after all. Working out the problems with the plant would have been a better use of time.

[Cellotron]

Originally Posted by Paul Gold

Maybe he sent you the right files after all.

Yup - nothing like an immediate ref approval to let you know sometimes it is indeed best to just shut your mouth and cut the parts. I was having a few conversations with Bob L. at the time though (he made a point to ask me to keep levels consistent for all sides, and leave any LPF's / HPF's and Elliptical EQ's off - although there was one side with some uncorrelated stuff on it that I had to use a VAB-84 vertical limiter on) and do sometimes wonder now what his reaction would have been if I had mentioned that I could get better sounding results without the clipping.

Working out the problems with the plant would have been a better use of time.

I agree - but was completely out of the loop once I had cut the mothers - they never even sent me a test pressing.

Good lesson for folks wanting to do an ultra-high quality vinyl release is to make sure you pick a record plant that also emphasizes quality (which means you usually have to pay a premium) - as what happens downstream of the mastering can often have a bigger effect on the final sound of the record than the mastering itself.

Best regards,
Steve Berson

[Paul Gold]

Originally Posted by Cellotron

YI agree - but was completely out of the loop once I had cut the mothers - they never even sent me a test pressing.

Good lesson for folks wanting to do an ultra-high quality vinyl release is to make sure you pick a record plant that also emphasizes quality (which means you usually have to pay a premium) - as what happens downstream of the mastering can often have a bigger effect on the final sound of the record than the mastering itself.

I'm sure you were out of the loop on it which is a shame. Since vinyl production is a messy business I think its part of the job to help with QC.

I don't find that good work costs extra. I find either you get it or you don't. Everyone is capable of doing good work. It's how problems are handled that seperate the good from the bad. I try to have personal relationships with the people who affect the outcome at the plants. Having knowledge of the production chain and the pitfalls helps. There is no faster way to loose credibility than to complain about something that whovever you are talking about has no control over.

[aeonsound]

the 'There There' single sounded lovely on vinyl, but to be fair i haven't listened to the CD properly for comparative purposes.

looking at the waveform above, it's eerily similar in appearance to contemporary electronic dance music...

lol @ bmanic's warning stickers... 'WARNING: DYNAMIC RANGE INTACT' sounds like an awesome range of t-shirts etc.

[JTransition]

I also try to deal with the pressing plant/Galvanics direct and bypassing the customer.Because at the end of the day the customer just wants a good product and is not really interested in bad batches of lacquers,Ph problems in the baths,Non fill on the presses etc.
I see it all the time where the pressing plant blames the mastering engineer who blames the galvanics who blames everyone else. This just makes us all look bad.

Yup - nothing like an immediate ref approval to let you know sometimes it is indeed best to just shut your mouth and cut the parts. I was having a few conversations with Bob L. at the time though (he made a point to ask me to keep levels consistent for all sides, and leave any LPF's / HPF's and Elliptical EQ's off - although there was one side with some uncorrelated stuff on it that I had to use a VAB-84 vertical limiter on) and do sometimes wonder now what his reaction would have been if I had mentioned that I could get better sounding results without the clipping.

Also No disrespect to Bob L who i believe has cut a lot of lacquers in his time,But if you want me to cut something flat then that's cool, but I decide whether or not i need to use an EE or how much of the acceleration limiter is needed, not the customer or the mix engineer or another mastering engineer.It`s all about trust,You do not take your car to a garage and tell the mechanic how to fix it.

Jason

[miet]

dont you all think that york/greenwood are more than qualified and so obviously would have had first hand involvement in the mastering process. if you dont like it blame the band, its part of there creative vision.

Originally Posted by aeonsound

looking at the waveform above, it's eerily similar in appearance to contemporary electronic dance music...

its eerily similar to electronic dance music as the music is similar to electronic dance music. thats what they are into, perhaps thats the dynamic they wanted......

[aeonsound]

Originally Posted by miet

its eerily similar to electronic dance music as the music is similar to electronic dance music. thats what they are into, perhaps thats the dynamic they wanted......

well, perhaps - like i said, i haven't heard it yet so can't speak with any authority whatsoever!

generally radiohead don't do much entirely-synthesised balls-to-the-wall mega-huge club music though, do they?

again, without hearing 'bodysnatchers', all i have to judge 'in rainbows' by is the single 'jigsaw falling into place', which features... live instrumentation, light-and-shade, and all those things which are often alien to electronic dance music it's quite common in my genre certainly for people to push things incredibly hard; waveforms tend to resemble solid black rectangular objects!

[Paul Gold]

Originally Posted by Fat larry

.Because at the end of the day the customer just wants a good product

I also try to protect the plant from the customer, as well as the other way around. If you want your record pressed in the middle of August in southern California or Florida you will have to put up with some non fill and/or warped/dished records. It's almost impossible to press a perfect record in 90F + heat unless you have water chillers which are too expensive to be practical.