MASTERING CHALLENGE

princeplanet · 27th November 2007

Internet forums like this one for the pro and semi pro (heck even amateur) audio world make us all a lot more knowledgeable than we were say 10 years ago. That and the way that technology has changed has taken much of the mystery out of the recording process. It should be obvious to most by now that, with band recordings for instance, some parts of the process are more difficult to achieve "world class" results than others. For example, tracking is comparatively easy whereas producing and arranging is not. Moreover, most of us are realising that mixing is not made any easier despite the myriad "automatic" software tools now available that can get you close but no cigar...

But what about mastering, I mean high end mastering? Once considered a black art, now everyone knows which converters to clip to get the hottest and cleanest sound. Oh but what's that I hear you say? The art of mastering is the intuitive genius to know just "how and when" to use the same gear everyone else either has (or has software emulations of). Then if this is true, the high end mastering guys will do for your project amazing things you cannot do for yourself, the same way that if Andy Wallace mixed your work it would be better than you might manage yourself.

Maybe, so here's the hypothesis: I think that it must be among the mid to high and not the very high end guys who are the "intuitive geniuses" with mastering. Why? Because the high end guys are anal and usually have the luxury of a perfectly fine mix and make it as loud as possible before the onset of audible distortion, without much change to the tonal, dynamic or spatial aspects of your work. How do I know? because all the greats have done exactly this to my mixes for 15 years. Sometimes they make it sound worse, but usually the same only louder.

Now the thing is, I also do a lot of mid priced mastering for various projects (including my own work) and using software alone, I can get mixes LOUDER with the same minimal distortion but with more tonal, dynamic and spatial bravado that sounds BETTER to me in my studio, better to my clients in their homes, better to the radio and TV guys and, yes, even better in mono.

Now before you think I'm boasting, the dozens of times this has happened to me with guys like TJ, Howie, Bernie, Bob L etc the experience remains one of abject despair because the client always wants to use their work, despite the few times I have managed to overrule and go with my own mastering with "winning" results (platinum records etc. ) I know how the client feels, for many years I doubted myself thinking "there must be something else that I'm not hearing that must be important" or "it'll broadcast better" ..... but alas, the client has paid the big bucks and the project suddenly has "prestige"...

Well I'm sick of it, and I can't be the only one so here's my idea.....

Let's have you good people send in your own examples where you think your mastering "beats" the big boys', or even send in the before and after and give some rookies out there a go at them to see if they can match the greats.

The reason? To explode the myth that high end mastering is worth your hard earned if your recording and mixing is not "A" list. Don't get me wrong, I know these guys are good, and are necessary and have their place, but as you will see, they will not always add $10K value to an album that only cost $20K to record and mix. Find a talented guy with a consistently good track record who can do it for $2K or less.

Any takers? (btw, I'll stay out of this, your humble prince wishes to remain anonymous....).

princeplanet · 27th November 2007

Oh, I forgot to mention that Emily Lazar was the one exception where her work beat mine. And I hardly ever hear her name around these parts.....

mischa janisch · 27th November 2007

I have read your post carefully, yet I am not quite sure what you are trying to prove...

Artist chose 'the big boys' because

* they have tons of experience and it's easy to get a hold of their latest work to check them out and find the right engineer. (just go to your local disounter...)
* contrary to popular belief they DO turn out great sounding masters quite often!
* name dropping?

Compared to Ted Jensen or Bob Ludwig me (and many others posting here) are nobodies. Hell, when asking the average producer where I live even Chris Athens is a nobody to them (sorry Chris

). That doesn't mean that I believe that the masters will sound much worse (or any worse...), but for the average guy ordering his favourite CD's at amazon it's much more likely that he'll find 'the big boys' work than mine.

When searching the web some figure that for 130,- EUR (175 $) per track they can have the same name on their own albums that they find on their favorite CD's - in case they don't attend. That's far away from the 10k you stated in your post... So guess what - some take the offer and are happy!

But fortunately (for the rest of us) that's only one side of the coin. There are clients who actually enjoy the personal contact, don't want to be a client ID on some FTP server, some others want to attend and not pay 4k for an attended session...
I get some of those, and there are enough out there. Most of them make great music, most do care about sound, some even make great sounding records with their smallish budgets, most sound good...

So I'm a happy man, and I'm sure there must be more out there to feel the same way. I guess the more quality work I manage to get out in the stores, the more high profile clients I will get as I've been doing the past 10 years. I doubt that 20 years from now this will make me some new Ted or Bob, but if fame was my game I would have applied for 'American Idol', joined the 'Disney Club' or whatever - but by any means I would have stayed away from mastering!!

bcgood · 27th November 2007

Quote:

Originally Posted by princeplanet

Oh, I forgot to mention that Emily Lazar was the one exception where her work beat mine. And I hardly ever hear her name around these parts.....

Her name should get mentioned more I consider her to be one of the best Mastering Engineers around. She truly has golden ears.

mischa janisch · 27th November 2007

Quote:

Originally Posted by bcgood

Her name should get mentioned more I consider her to be one of the best Mastering Engineers around. She truly has golden ears.

I've never been quite sure if golden ears were any better than the regular set of ears - I guess for me ears made of metal would sound a little too harsh in the hi frequency range

pinwale · 27th November 2007

Quote:

Originally Posted by princeplanet

Any takers? (btw, I'll stay out of this, your humble prince wishes to remain anonymous....).

So what you're saying is, "I'm awesome, I beat everybody, high-end mastering is an inflated sham, but I'm not going to participate in this challenge I've laid out to prove it"

So humble! So beneficent! Protecting those who would participate from being shamed by your awesomeness.

I counter-hypothesize that "internet forums like this one" disseminate enough knowledge about matters such as mastering that frequent readers will begin to think they are as expert as they would be with actual experience.

studjo · 27th November 2007

nicely put

soundroid · 27th November 2007

Quote:

Originally Posted by princeplanet

Internet forums like this one for the pro and semi pro (heck even amateur) audio world make us all a lot more knowledgeable than we were say 10 years ago. That and the way that technology has changed has taken much of the mystery out of the recording process. It should be obvious to most by now that, with band recordings for instance, some parts of the process are more difficult to achieve "world class" results than others. For example, tracking is comparatively easy whereas producing and arranging is not. Moreover, most of us are realising that mixing is not made any easier despite the myriad "automatic" software tools now available that can get you close but no cigar...

But what about mastering, I mean high end mastering? Once considered a black art, now everyone knows which converters to clip to get the hottest and cleanest sound. Oh but what's that I hear you say? The art of mastering is the intuitive genius to know just "how and when" to use the same gear everyone else either has (or has software emulations of). Then if this is true, the high end mastering guys will do for your project amazing things you cannot do for yourself, the same way that if Andy Wallace mixed your work it would be better than you might manage yourself.

Maybe, so here's the hypothesis: I think that it must be among the mid to high and not the very high end guys who are the "intuitive geniuses" with mastering. Why? Because the high end guys are anal and usually have the luxury of a perfectly fine mix and make it as loud as possible before the onset of audible distortion, without much change to the tonal, dynamic or spatial aspects of your work. How do I know? because all the greats have done exactly this to my mixes for 15 years. Sometimes they make it sound worse, but usually the same only louder.

Now the thing is, I also do a lot of mid priced mastering for various projects (including my own work) and using software alone, I can get mixes LOUDER with the same minimal distortion but with more tonal, dynamic and spatial bravado that sounds BETTER to me in my studio, better to my clients in their homes, better to the radio and TV guys and, yes, even better in mono.

Now before you think I'm boasting, the dozens of times this has happened to me with guys like TJ, Howie, Bernie, Bob L etc the experience remains one of abject despair because the client always wants to use their work, despite the few times I have managed to overrule and go with my own mastering with "winning" results (platinum records etc. ) I know how the client feels, for many years I doubted myself thinking "there must be something else that I'm not hearing that must be important" or "it'll broadcast better" ..... but alas, the client has paid the big bucks and the project suddenly has "prestige"...

Well I'm sick of it, and I can't be the only one so here's my idea.....

Let's have you good people send in your own examples where you think your mastering "beats" the big boys', or even send in the before and after and give some rookies out there a go at them to see if they can match the greats.

The reason? To explode the myth that high end mastering is worth your hard earned if your recording and mixing is not "A" list. Don't get me wrong, I know these guys are good, and are necessary and have their place, but as you will see, they will not always add $10K value to an album that only cost $20K to record and mix. Find a talented guy with a consistently good track record who can do it for $2K or less.

Any takers? (btw, I'll stay out of this, your humble prince wishes to remain anonymous....).

why don't you buy yourself a bunch of flowers and take yourself out to dinner.

Cellotron · 27th November 2007

**Riccardo** · 27th November 2007

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cellotron

finetuner · 27th November 2007

Quote:

Originally Posted by princeplanet

... better to my clients in their homes ...

Quote:

Originally Posted by princeplanet

... the experience remains one of abject despair because the client always wants to use their work, despite the few times I have managed to overrule and go with my own mastering with "winning" results (platinum records etc. ...

So when you 'confronted' your clients with the difference and they still decide to go for the lesser sounding (?) 'hi-end-guy s' work, then they don't deserve any 'better' do they?

Peter

drakewire · 27th November 2007

This posting is uhhhh

The fact is these guys have experience and have put out hit records... The little guys have not... Can you do the same No! End of discussion..... The fact is guys on this board have millions of dollars of equipment and they have the ears to match...

And no you are not better than Andy and never will be. the guys is a genius! and might I add a very nice guy... Your challenge is met with applause and the fact that your just fed up with being rejected, and its cool... I understand... It cost a lot of money to record an album, but then again no one asked you to spend the cash either...

If you want a recording from a Burger Flipper at Mcdonalds be my guest... But dont bash the people who have made a career for themselves saying they suck or you can do better..

princeplanet · 28th November 2007

OK, we've had the expected "emotional'" rush to defend the realm, so is there no-one willing to stand by the prince? Was my contention that hard to understand? Let me be a little clearer, I contend, for the benefit of this forum and not my own, that sub A list projects do not get the care and attention they think they are paying for when they hire an A list Masterer, for whatever reason. This is NOT like saying that I think that I am a better masterer than these folk, only that their work on my projects have been too easy to replicate or surpass according to my tastes and requirements as well as those of others. High End Mastering, like high end Producing and High End Mixing should be something you shouldn't easily be able to replicate or surpass at home.

Look, I have numerous examples over several years where the darn thing came back 9 db louder but essentially no creative "spruce up". There are kids with cracked plugins that can do this! Now I'm a mixer (not a mastering engineer) and I think I'm ok, but no-one is that good that they can't have their mixes improved a little tone wise at mastering. Like most of us, I can do with a little tightening in the lows, some tidying in the low mids, some compressed sparkle up top and a bit of widening if it sounds better. And each song should be "seasoned" differently according to its own needs. But when the big guys do my stuff it seems they shove it into the sausage factory and hope that the "one size fits all". It seems as though they don't have to try very hard when their reputation is not at stake. Yes, these are my personal observations and I should be allowed to air them here and yes, I'd like to know if any others have had similar experiences. Unfortunately I can't put up any examples as they have all been label projects where the politics would make it messy, so I urge those of you out there who have no such qualm to share your experiences so that the good folk at GS will know what to expect if they budget for some of that "high end mastering".

The prince only wishes to fight the good fight. Now excuse me while I find a bigger bunker to hide in....

silverking · 28th November 2007

Why do you keep calling yourself "the prince" and referring to yourself in third person?
Sounds sorta' lame.

This topic makes me feel like sleeping.

jdg · 28th November 2007

anyone wanna arm wrestle?!

princeplanet · 28th November 2007

Quote:

Originally Posted by silverking

Why do you keep calling yourself "the prince" and referring to yourself in third person?
Sounds sorta' lame.

This topic makes me feel like sleeping.

sorry bout that chief (er, I mean "King"....) just trying a bit of sensationalism to awaken the sleeping masses...

master commander · 28th November 2007

sounds to me like the prince has cloth ears. because you can't hear a difference doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Maybe your Mackies? let me guess... you've just discovered a multiband and you ram it until everything in the GUI moves. Look Ma, no hands.

Paul Gold · 28th November 2007

Quote:

Originally Posted by princeplanet

Let's have you good people send in your own examples where you think your mastering "beats" the big boys', or even send in the before and after and give some rookies out there a go at them to see if they can match the greats.

Quote:

It seems as though they don't have to try very hard when their reputation is not at stake.

so I urge those of you out there who have no such qualm to share your experiences so that the good folk at GS will know what to expect if they budget for some of that "high end mastering".

You're asking a bunch of mastering engineers to compete against what you consider consciously sub par work. What's the spread?

drakewire · 28th November 2007

I heard a copy of what Prince Ali thinks is on par with Ted, Bernie, Eddy, and I think Ill be okay

It will take six or seven months to recover

Led · 28th November 2007

Ya sure it's Princeplanet, and not Prince Walters?

drakewire · 28th November 2007

no its Prince Albert

ONDRAY · 28th November 2007

WTF??? am I reading.

drakewire · 28th November 2007

He came to the million man march solo yelling racial slurs....

the fact is Prince of the Forrest... This forum is about achieving sound that the amazing, brilliant people have accomplished....

Guys like Bob, Bernie, Ted, Eddy, Brian, and all the other tremendous Mastering Engineers and influential people havent responded to your challenge... they are busy making hit records... Why do people go to AES when you can use a tape recorder? Why make cars when people can walk, the fact is the music business is a shrine to those who have paid their dues, made great stuff and worked their way up the ropes...

What did you think Ted Jensen would respond to the challenge...

He is way too busy buying Ferrari's and the record labels are way to busy making sure he is happy....

princeplanet · 28th November 2007

Quote:

Originally Posted by drakewire

He came to the million man march solo yelling racial slurs....

the fact is Prince of the Forrest... This forum is about achieving sound that the amazing, brilliant people have accomplished....

Guys like Bob, Bernie, Ted, Eddy, Brian, and all the other tremendous Mastering Engineers and influential people havent responded to your challenge... they are busy making hit records... Why do people go to AES when you can use a tape recorder? Why make cars when people can walk, the fact is the music business is a shrine to those who have paid their dues, made great stuff and worked their way up the ropes...

What did you think Ted Jensen would respond to the challenge...

He is way too busy buying Ferrari's and the record labels are way to busy making sure he is happy....

Whoa, a lot of emotion out there..... is anyone hearing me right? I'll try to spell it out one more time, is there anyone out there that has sent in work to the big guys and been disappointed that the work came back louder but with no attempt at tonal or dynamic rebalancing or even attempts that are decidedly sub par? No names need be mentioned, it needn't be a witch hunt. Sending an example of a before and after may show those who are interested that the big guys don't always do what the little guys can't do at home.
This ain't a challenge to the big guys, it's a challenge to the little guys. If I'm wrong and the little guys can't compete with what has been "summarily" done in some instances , then the big guys got nothing to worry about, right? If I'm right, then some of the bigger guys might want to pull the finger out and try a little harder for the little guys money and give him something that a kid with cracked plugins cant do at home!

Sheesh! where's the harm? Some of the pathetic (and bizarre!) attempts out there to undermine any credibility to this (and me!) betray some kinda fear or insecurity.

Me thinketh some of you protesteth too much.

Adam Dempsey · 28th November 2007

Quote:

Originally Posted by princeplanet

But what about mastering, I mean high end mastering? Once considered a black art

Many may have long considered it a black art, but it's never actually been a black art.

Quote:

Originally Posted by princeplanet

Oh but what's that I hear you say? The art of mastering is the intuitive genius to know just "how and when" to use the same gear everyone else either has (or has software emulations of).

Or knowing, rather (via much experience, objectivity and a really accurate monitoring environment), when not to.

tsvisser · 28th November 2007

you are paying for their expertise. if you send them a great mix that needs very little processing and they send it back to you... having done almost nothing, well, you still have to pay the bill. they are basically putting a stamp on it saying that this is ready for airplay, to be pressed to disc, to be released for score... what have you.

you are much more familiar with the project than any mastering engineer could possibly be. you know how you mic'd things, if there were any extenuating circumstances on a take, what processing you used. you have a microscopic viewpoint of the mix.

the mastering engineer has a macroscopic viewpoint. he knows what your mix, his impression, sounds like against the ruler of other works. of course there are the technical processes, like checking for mono compatibility, etc... but for the most part he is an expert, with good ears, with good equipment, that can be the buffer between your (and your clients) work and the public hearing it for the first time. many would argue that the typical mortal simply could not mix and master his own material, because that separation and unfamiliarity of the work is needed in order to achieve an unbiased experience.

there is no absolute, so you can really do what you want or what you can convince your clients to do. personally, I'd want to hand off my work to a mastering house, as I respect that process that I've described above. If they hand the material back to me with little processing, I'd actually be quite flattered.

Empire Prod · 28th November 2007

Quote:

Originally Posted by princeplanet

sorry bout that chief (er, I mean "King"....) just trying a bit of sensationalism to awaken the sleeping masses...

Where are you located so I can kick your ass?

Andreas G · 28th November 2007

Quote:

Originally Posted by princeplanet

Look, I have numerous examples over several years where the darn thing came back 9 db louder but essentially no creative "spruce up".

Hello princess,

perhaps the solution is less difficult than it might seem.
Just don't allow the mastering guy to make your mix any louder,
this will force him to be more creative. Make it louder afterwards, (if needed).

Andreas

Alex Niedt · 28th November 2007

Quote:

Originally Posted by princeplanet

Is there anyone out there that has sent in work to the big guys and been disappointed that the work came back louder but with no attempt at tonal or dynamic rebalancing or even attempts that are decidedly sub par?

I've come across this complaint multiple times. So the answer to your question is "yes." Absolutely.

Paul Gold · 28th November 2007

The only way to prove your point would be to provide an example. Since you can't do that there is no way to judge the outcome. If you only want to prove this to yourself then you could be the judge. I think a fair prize would be a quart of clam chowder from the Chelsea Market.

27th November 2007	#1
princeplanet Lives for gear Joined: Aug 2007 Posts: 1,022 Thread Starter	MASTERING CHALLENGE Internet forums like this one for the pro and semi pro (heck even amateur) audio world make us all a lot more knowledgeable than we were say 10 years ago. That and the way that technology has changed has taken much of the mystery out of the recording process. It should be obvious to most by now that, with band recordings for instance, some parts of the process are more difficult to achieve "world class" results than others. For example, tracking is comparatively easy whereas producing and arranging is not. Moreover, most of us are realising that mixing is not made any easier despite the myriad "automatic" software tools now available that can get you close but no cigar... But what about mastering, I mean high end mastering? Once considered a black art, now everyone knows which converters to clip to get the hottest and cleanest sound. Oh but what's that I hear you say? The art of mastering is the intuitive genius to know just "how and when" to use the same gear everyone else either has (or has software emulations of). Then if this is true, the high end mastering guys will do for your project amazing things you cannot do for yourself, the same way that if Andy Wallace mixed your work it would be better than you might manage yourself. Maybe, so here's the hypothesis: I think that it must be among the mid to high and not the very high end guys who are the "intuitive geniuses" with mastering. Why? Because the high end guys are anal and usually have the luxury of a perfectly fine mix and make it as loud as possible before the onset of audible distortion, without much change to the tonal, dynamic or spatial aspects of your work. How do I know? because all the greats have done exactly this to my mixes for 15 years. Sometimes they make it sound worse, but usually the same only louder. Now the thing is, I also do a lot of mid priced mastering for various projects (including my own work) and using software alone, I can get mixes LOUDER with the same minimal distortion but with more tonal, dynamic and spatial bravado that sounds BETTER to me in my studio, better to my clients in their homes, better to the radio and TV guys and, yes, even better in mono. Now before you think I'm boasting, the dozens of times this has happened to me with guys like TJ, Howie, Bernie, Bob L etc the experience remains one of abject despair because the client always wants to use their work, despite the few times I have managed to overrule and go with my own mastering with "winning" results (platinum records etc. ) I know how the client feels, for many years I doubted myself thinking "there must be something else that I'm not hearing that must be important" or "it'll broadcast better" ..... but alas, the client has paid the big bucks and the project suddenly has "prestige"... Well I'm sick of it, and I can't be the only one so here's my idea..... Let's have you good people send in your own examples where you think your mastering "beats" the big boys', or even send in the before and after and give some rookies out there a go at them to see if they can match the greats. The reason? To explode the myth that high end mastering is worth your hard earned if your recording and mixing is not "A" list. Don't get me wrong, I know these guys are good, and are necessary and have their place, but as you will see, they will not always add $10K value to an album that only cost $20K to record and mix. Find a talented guy with a consistently good track record who can do it for $2K or less. Any takers? (btw, I'll stay out of this, your humble prince wishes to remain anonymous....).

27th November 2007	#3
mischa janisch Gear addict Joined: Jan 2007 Location: Vienna Posts: 484	I have read your post carefully, yet I am not quite sure what you are trying to prove... Artist chose 'the big boys' because * they have tons of experience and it's easy to get a hold of their latest work to check them out and find the right engineer. (just go to your local disounter...) * contrary to popular belief they DO turn out great sounding masters quite often! * name dropping? Compared to Ted Jensen or Bob Ludwig me (and many others posting here) are nobodies. Hell, when asking the average producer where I live even Chris Athens is a nobody to them (sorry Chris ). That doesn't mean that I believe that the masters will sound much worse (or any worse...), but for the average guy ordering his favourite CD's at amazon it's much more likely that he'll find 'the big boys' work than mine. When searching the web some figure that for 130,- EUR (175 $) per track they can have the same name on their own albums that they find on their favorite CD's - in case they don't attend. That's far away from the 10k you stated in your post... So guess what - some take the offer and are happy! But fortunately (for the rest of us) that's only one side of the coin. There are clients who actually enjoy the personal contact, don't want to be a client ID on some FTP server, some others want to attend and not pay 4k for an attended session... I get some of those, and there are enough out there. Most of them make great music, most do care about sound, some even make great sounding records with their smallish budgets, most sound good... So I'm a happy man, and I'm sure there must be more out there to feel the same way. I guess the more quality work I manage to get out in the stores, the more high profile clients I will get as I've been doing the past 10 years. I doubt that 20 years from now this will make me some new Ted or Bob, but if fame was my game I would have applied for 'American Idol', joined the 'Disney Club' or whatever - but by any means I would have stayed away from mastering!! __________________ Mischa Janisch www.sunshinemastering.com Studio Construction - Photo Diary

27th November 2007	#12
drakewire Lives for gear Joined: Sep 2006 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 832	This posting is uhhhh The fact is these guys have experience and have put out hit records... The little guys have not... Can you do the same No! End of discussion..... The fact is guys on this board have millions of dollars of equipment and they have the ears to match... And no you are not better than Andy and never will be. the guys is a genius! and might I add a very nice guy... Your challenge is met with applause and the fact that your just fed up with being rejected, and its cool... I understand... It cost a lot of money to record an album, but then again no one asked you to spend the cash either... If you want a recording from a Burger Flipper at Mcdonalds be my guest... But dont bash the people who have made a career for themselves saying they suck or you can do better.. __________________

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27th November 2007	#7
studjo Lives for gear Joined: Jun 2002 Location: Switzerland Posts: 2,414	nicely put

27th November 2007	#9
Cellotron Lives for gear Joined: Aug 2004 Location: Brooklyn, New York Posts: 3,638 Verified Member

28th November 2007	#13
princeplanet Lives for gear Joined: Aug 2007 Posts: 1,022 Thread Starter	OK, we've had the expected "emotional'" rush to defend the realm, so is there no-one willing to stand by the prince? Was my contention that hard to understand? Let me be a little clearer, I contend, for the benefit of this forum and not my own, that sub A list projects do not get the care and attention they think they are paying for when they hire an A list Masterer, for whatever reason. This is NOT like saying that I think that I am a better masterer than these folk, only that their work on my projects have been too easy to replicate or surpass according to my tastes and requirements as well as those of others. High End Mastering, like high end Producing and High End Mixing should be something you shouldn't easily be able to replicate or surpass at home. Look, I have numerous examples over several years where the darn thing came back 9 db louder but essentially no creative "spruce up". There are kids with cracked plugins that can do this! Now I'm a mixer (not a mastering engineer) and I think I'm ok, but no-one is that good that they can't have their mixes improved a little tone wise at mastering. Like most of us, I can do with a little tightening in the lows, some tidying in the low mids, some compressed sparkle up top and a bit of widening if it sounds better. And each song should be "seasoned" differently according to its own needs. But when the big guys do my stuff it seems they shove it into the sausage factory and hope that the "one size fits all". It seems as though they don't have to try very hard when their reputation is not at stake. Yes, these are my personal observations and I should be allowed to air them here and yes, I'd like to know if any others have had similar experiences. Unfortunately I can't put up any examples as they have all been label projects where the politics would make it messy, so I urge those of you out there who have no such qualm to share your experiences so that the good folk at GS will know what to expect if they budget for some of that "high end mastering". The prince only wishes to fight the good fight. Now excuse me while I find a bigger bunker to hide in....

28th November 2007	#14
silverking Gear addict Joined: Oct 2006 Posts: 332	Why do you keep calling yourself "the prince" and referring to yourself in third person? Sounds sorta' lame. This topic makes me feel like sleeping.

28th November 2007	#15
jdg Lives for gear Joined: Aug 2005 Location: seattle, WA Posts: 2,540 Verified Member	anyone wanna arm wrestle?!

28th November 2007	#17
master commander Banned Joined: Sep 2007 Location: florida Posts: 46	sounds to me like the prince has cloth ears. because you can't hear a difference doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Maybe your Mackies? let me guess... you've just discovered a multiband and you ram it until everything in the GUI moves. Look Ma, no hands.

28th November 2007	#20
Led Lives for gear Joined: Apr 2006 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 2,728	Ya sure it's Princeplanet, and not Prince Walters?

28th November 2007	#22
ONDRAY Lives for gear Joined: Jun 2004 Location: Toronto Posts: 737	WTF??? am I reading.

28th November 2007	#26
tsvisser Lives for gear Joined: Feb 2007 Location: Honolulu HI Posts: 1,852	you are paying for their expertise. if you send them a great mix that needs very little processing and they send it back to you... having done almost nothing, well, you still have to pay the bill. they are basically putting a stamp on it saying that this is ready for airplay, to be pressed to disc, to be released for score... what have you. you are much more familiar with the project than any mastering engineer could possibly be. you know how you mic'd things, if there were any extenuating circumstances on a take, what processing you used. you have a microscopic viewpoint of the mix. the mastering engineer has a macroscopic viewpoint. he knows what your mix, his impression, sounds like against the ruler of other works. of course there are the technical processes, like checking for mono compatibility, etc... but for the most part he is an expert, with good ears, with good equipment, that can be the buffer between your (and your clients) work and the public hearing it for the first time. many would argue that the typical mortal simply could not mix and master his own material, because that separation and unfamiliarity of the work is needed in order to achieve an unbiased experience. there is no absolute, so you can really do what you want or what you can convince your clients to do. personally, I'd want to hand off my work to a mastering house, as I respect that process that I've described above. If they hand the material back to me with little processing, I'd actually be quite flattered.

28th November 2007	#30
Paul Gold Lives for gear Joined: Jan 2003 Location: Brooklyn Posts: 1,009 Verified Member	The only way to prove your point would be to provide an example. Since you can't do that there is no way to judge the outcome. If you only want to prove this to yourself then you could be the judge. I think a fair prize would be a quart of clam chowder from the Chelsea Market.