Mastered/Bounced tracks are just NOT loud enough

Decept · 12th November 2007, 10:47 PM

Ok guys, so here is the problem. I have been mastering my band's 6 song EP in logic 8 (totally inside the box) and have made decent finished products of all the songs.

But here's the problem. I normalize and export them, and listen to them next to other "professional" songs... and they are just NOT loud enough. So I take them back into Logic to see what the wave forms look like, and the track is close to peaking. I mean, if you turn it up anymore, it WILL peak.

MY QUESTION:

How can a track that is so close to peaking, be so quiet?

**Riccardo** · 12th November 2007, 11:01 PM

The quest for truth and knowledge lies in the "search"

Tip: it depends on "what" and "how" is peaking...............
Back to more practical issues:what do you mean when you say "I normalize and export them"
What operations do you actually perform?

Decept · 12th November 2007, 11:07 PM

For clarification - I made a stereo mix, put it in a new project. Added a multipressor, eq, exciter and adaptive limiter. And bounced it. Logic "normalizes" it when it bounces.

I love the way it sounds, just wish it could be louder.

Boomshanka · 12th November 2007, 11:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Decept

For clarification - I made a stereo mix, put it in a new project. Added a multipressor, eq, exciter and adaptive limiter. And bounced it. Logic "normalizes" it when it bounces.

I love the way it sounds, just wish it could be louder.

Then turn it up, 'cos if it's hitting 0dBFS the only way you'll get it louder on disc is to change the way it sounds. Fact.

In terms of more helpful advice...
Doing it all in the box can make it all the more difficult. At least try reordering the processes: eq, exciter (if really needed), multipressor, adaptive limiter. Try first focussing on EQ alone. If that's not doing it for you, go back to the mix.

All depends on the mix and the dynamics of its components.

And, yeah, the search function, above, where it's all been said many, many times.

**Riccardo** · 13th November 2007, 12:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Decept

For clarification - I made a stereo mix, put it in a new project. Added a multipressor, eq, exciter and adaptive limiter. And bounced it. Logic "normalizes" it when it bounces.

I love the way it sounds, just wish it could be louder.

Never noticed that feature, I'll check when I can. You might also want to do a search for "normalize". I'm confident it can be turned off .........

brethes@mac.com · 13th November 2007, 12:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Decept

Ok guys, so here is the problem. I have been mastering my band's 6 song EP in logic 8 (totally inside the box) and have made decent finished products of all the songs.

But here's the problem. I normalize and export them, and listen to them next to other "professional" songs... and they are just NOT loud enough. So I take them back into Logic to see what the wave forms look like, and the track is close to peaking. I mean, if you turn it up anymore, it WILL peak.

MY QUESTION:

How can a track that is so close to peaking, be so quiet?

This is how we (Long Suffering Over-Qualified Mastering Engineers) still get paid the big bucks (or quids, as in my case)! And even if we wanted to explain how we do it, we couldn't as it is not about equipment, secret techniques or special recipes as each new track is a different challenge and we mostly have to re-invent ourselves everyday...

twwalsh · 13th November 2007, 01:54 AM

first, you need to change the way you mix...you'll need more compression at more stages of the tracking and mixing process, so there's less dynamic range to your mixes.

second, you need to learn to tolerate more distortion and dynamic control artifacts at the "mastering" stage, pushing your limiter a little bit harder.

third, who gives a **** how loud it is?

Wayne · 13th November 2007, 03:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by twwalsh

..third, who gives a **** how loud it is?

Um, everyone he's comparing his cds to?

Mike Caffrey · 13th November 2007, 05:10 AM

The simplest answer is that the audio content closest to 0dBFS is not the content that you want closest to 0dBFS.

Suppose you had a dog whistle solo throughout the whole song and it was 10dB louder than everything else. You waveform and meters would sho that you're as loud as you can get wihtout clipping, but you program material would sound like it was 10dB lower. Filter that dogwhistle out and then you can crank everything else up 10dB.

That's not a realistic scenario, but having so tranties peaks in sub frequencies on kick, or bass or guitar or maybe 12k on a snare there's a 2-3 sample 6dB peak that you can notch out and then crank the whole mix up 5-6dB.

You may need a different monitoring environment to hear what's going on during the peaks to know what's keeping the rest of your mix down.

Ben F · 13th November 2007, 08:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Decept

MY QUESTION:

How can a track that is so close to peaking, be so quiet?

Because you are looking at the peak level not the RMS (average) level. Click on the meters in Logic and use RMS, then compare it to professionally mastered track. The peak levels will be around the same, but the RMS will be noticeably different.

Just use one decent compressor instead of multipressors etc if the mix is ok. Plenty of good tube emulation compressors out there.

Silvertone · 13th November 2007, 12:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by brethes@mac.com

This is how we (Long Suffering Over-Qualified Mastering Engineers) still get paid the big bucks (or quids, as in my case)! And even if we wanted to explain how we do it, we couldn't as it is not about equipment, secret techniques or special recipes as each new track is a different challenge and we mostly have to re-invent ourselves everyday...

Amen to that brother, every f*ckin day, day in and day out and in many cases (because of poor engineering practices) from song to song.

MASSIVE Master · 14th November 2007, 06:11 AM

Amen to the amen to that.

And isn't the "how do you get it loud" stuff getting really old, or is it just me?

narcoman · 14th November 2007, 08:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MASSIVE Master

Amen to the amen to that.

And isn't the "how do you get it loud" stuff getting really old, or is it just me?

yeah! But he doesnt know that...

your mix may not be "up to" making really loud. Which in turn means your tracking may not be up to it. You cant just make a mix loud, you gotta know how to mix and more importantly - how to track. Tracking depends on raw sound, recording techniques and the room your using as well as equipment.

You are saying it sounds good - then take it to a professional matering engineer and see what he can do. If he can match he loudness you're after then its the mixtracking that is wrong - heck that can even be down to arrangement!

Loudness shouldnt matter but unfortunately to punters - it does.....

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12th November 2007, 10:47 PM	#1
Decept Gear interested Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 22	Mastered/Bounced tracks are just NOT loud enough Ok guys, so here is the problem. I have been mastering my band's 6 song EP in logic 8 (totally inside the box) and have made decent finished products of all the songs. But here's the problem. I normalize and export them, and listen to them next to other "professional" songs... and they are just NOT loud enough. So I take them back into Logic to see what the wave forms look like, and the track is close to peaking. I mean, if you turn it up anymore, it WILL peak. MY QUESTION: How can a track that is so close to peaking, be so quiet?

12th November 2007, 11:01 PM	#2
Riccardo Mastering Moderator Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Always on the Run Posts: 1,430	The quest for truth and knowledge lies in the "search" Tip: it depends on "what" and "how" is peaking............... Back to more practical issues:what do you mean when you say "I normalize and export them" What operations do you actually perform? __________________ Velvet Room Mastering "What quality level does it need to be? Personally, I work on mixes that range from marvellous to hideously diabolical.......I'd suggest you aim more towards the "marvellous" end of the scale!" - Darius van Helfteren -

14th November 2007, 06:11 AM	#12
MASSIVE Master Lives for gear Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Chicago (Schaumburg / Hoffman Est.) IL Posts: 1,539	Amen to the amen to that. And isn't the "how do you get it loud" stuff getting really old, or is it just me? __________________ John Scrip - Massive Mastering - www.massivemastering.com Spoon-feed a newb some answer and he'll mix for a day - Get him to think about it and figure it out for himself and he'll mix for a lifetime.

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12th November 2007, 11:07 PM	#3
Decept Gear interested Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 22	For clarification - I made a stereo mix, put it in a new project. Added a multipressor, eq, exciter and adaptive limiter. And bounced it. Logic "normalizes" it when it bounces. I love the way it sounds, just wish it could be louder.

13th November 2007, 01:54 AM	#7
twwalsh Gear maniac Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Boston, MA Posts: 251	first, you need to change the way you mix...you'll need more compression at more stages of the tracking and mixing process, so there's less dynamic range to your mixes. second, you need to learn to tolerate more distortion and dynamic control artifacts at the "mastering" stage, pushing your limiter a little bit harder. third, who gives a **** how loud it is?

13th November 2007, 05:10 AM	#9
Mike Caffrey Lives for gear Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: New York City Posts: 2,586	The simplest answer is that the audio content closest to 0dBFS is not the content that you want closest to 0dBFS. Suppose you had a dog whistle solo throughout the whole song and it was 10dB louder than everything else. You waveform and meters would sho that you're as loud as you can get wihtout clipping, but you program material would sound like it was 10dB lower. Filter that dogwhistle out and then you can crank everything else up 10dB. That's not a realistic scenario, but having so tranties peaks in sub frequencies on kick, or bass or guitar or maybe 12k on a snare there's a 2-3 sample 6dB peak that you can notch out and then crank the whole mix up 5-6dB. You may need a different monitoring environment to hear what's going on during the peaks to know what's keeping the rest of your mix down.