Why are my mixes SOO quiet in comparison to every song in the world?

[audiosymmetry]

I understand the loudness wars are killing audio, but on the other hand, I don't want people to have to turn up their stereos to hear my tracks. I've tried every limiter, compressor, peak slammer you can imagine, and I always end up at least 6 dB's under the general standard of most CD's. Am I recording my tracks incorrectly? Currently, I record vocals almost at 0 dB but not clipping. The rest of the tracks are electronic. All my tracks combined push the master channel almost to 0 dB. After mixing is done, I try the compressors, limiters/ peak slammers, etc etc on my master track and I fall short. I've searched for answers in other forums and found so many conflicting viewpoints, so now I'm just trying to find what the majority seems to think...

[ninjaneer]

there are some ideas discussed here:

How to get those SUPER Loud Mixes?

you might have to sift through to find the info about tracking as opposed to mastering..
there are other posts.. dig around a little, good luck

[lucey]

recording close to 0dbfs is not going to help, you'll soon be overloading plug ins.

posting to the mp3 forum might help.

[Adam Dempsey]

or "why is every other song soo loud?"

I understand the loudness wars are killing audio, but on the other hand, I don't want people to have to turn up their stereos to hear my tracks.

Solution: compromise. And it depends on your comparison - is it realsitic?; you'd be surprised how many big name releases still get out there with relatively conservative (eg -14dB rms) level on disc.

If you're happy with the sound of your mixes then don't necessarily question if you're recording them correctly.

Don't rely on compression simply to gain level. Compress to tame an element's dynamic range - for it's sound, not level, or to create contrast (& separation) within a mix vs dynamic elements. Other aspects are usually a combination of many things, gain staging, pre's, tubes, transformers, tape, the 'bigness' of a good room..

[master commander]

I saw this thing advertised on TV that even lets you listen to conversations from across the room. you could get one of these, might help.

other than that... zzzzzzz you can try searching. That might help.

[sloper]

It would be easier to help you if you put a track online. Throw one up and we'll give it a listen. Most of your problems are probably in the mixes you're working with.

If you want to try yet another "peak slammer" try the Timeworks Mastering Compressor. One of my favorites. I use it all the time to suck the life out of my mixes...

-slopers


p.s. This is why i send my mastering to someone else. Because i don't know what the hell i'm doing. But i do know a good mix when i hear one, and i know exactly how it will sound when a good "Mastering Engineer" gets a hold if it. Some mixes should not be mastered, they should be remixed!

[Darius van H]

Originally Posted by audiosymmetry

I understand the loudness wars are killing audio, but on the other hand, I don't want people to have to turn up their stereos to hear my tracks. I've tried every limiter, compressor, peak slammer you can imagine, and I always end up at least 6 dB's under the general standard of most CD's. Am I recording my tracks incorrectly?

It's probably because you're not very good yet. Sorry to put it so bluntly, but it takes years of experience, trial and error to learn how to mould a mix so it sounds loud. There's a reason why most of the top mix guys are in their 30's or 40's.

[Bob Olhsson]

Originally Posted by Darius van H

...There's a reason why most of the top mix guys are in their 30's or 40's.

Most of them were also among the top mix guys when they were in their 20s too...

The only trick I know is to record just as clean as you possibly can until the final limiting. Distortion accumulates and if there's too much, you can't limit the mix very much. A super clean recording of a great distorted amp always sounds huge.

[audiosymmetry]

If you're happy with the sound of your mixes then don't necessarily question if you're recording them correctly.

-Boomshanka


I will say this... if I play my mix, then turn volume down about 6 dB's and put a Radiohead album on, the two songs are in the same league. My mix seems to stand up to some of my favorite CD's as long as I a/b using the same respective volumes. I could be completely out of my mind of course and it would be my pleasure (as much as I'm sure it will be yours) to have that confirmed. Take a listen...

p.s. The song attached was rendered out of Ableton Live, then compressed as an mp3 with iTunes. I then had to cut out the last 5 minutes with Sound Forge so it wouldn't exceed 5 mb, thus recompressing it as an mp3 again. is that baaad? :D

[narcoman]

Originally Posted by Bob Olhsson

Most of them were also among the top mix guys when they were in their 20s too...

Thats just not true these days Bob. I know it was true back in the day, but the levels of competition have pushed it into an older man/womans role where experience wins the day!!

Sure, Alan Moulder and Andy Wallace were mos def doing the big gigs as younger men, as were you. But it was in a day when it was a viable career that you could (somewhat) learn on the job through apprenticeships. These days if youre not fully firing on all cylinders you dont get the gig. Hence the youngest of successful mixers tend to be 35 plus, even on the indie scene, whereas 25 or 30 years ago you'd see people in their mid 20's.

[PoorGlory]

Originally Posted by audiosymmetry

If you're happy with the sound of your mixes then don't necessarily question if you're recording them correctly.

-Boomshanka


I will say this... if I play my mix, then turn volume down about 6 dB's and put a Radiohead album on, the two songs are in the same league. My mix seems to stand up to some of my favorite CD's as long as I a/b using the same respective volumes. I could be completely out of my mind of course and it would be my pleasure (as much as I'm sure it will be yours) to have that confirmed. Take a listen...

p.s. The song attached was rendered out of Ableton Live, then compressed as an mp3 with iTunes. I then had to cut out the last 5 minutes with Sound Forge so it wouldn't exceed 5 mb, thus recompressing it as an mp3 again. is that baaad? :D

After listening on just my laptop speakers, I will say that you have a lot of headroom on there... you can compress way more without distortion. Sure, your dynamics will die, but that's the tradeoff.

The secret is lots of presence and midrange, and go light on the low end, prior to super-limiting. It usually takes me several tries to get it right, but I'm not a pro ME. It also helps to have a great mix. Shitty mixes never sound right when they're loud. I've found that using a multi-band compressor to compress the low end (125 and under) keeps it under control so that you have nice thick bass response even though the limiter is reacting more to the midrange than it is to the low end. The last master I did was TOO loud... louder than all of my loud reference CDs. With that one I discovered that too little limiting sounds just as bad as too much. There is a spot where the limiter feels just right when it comes to making it loud and intense. For me, it's either that spot, or no limiting at all. Which doesn't fly with any of the metal bands I work with.

Also keep in mind that when super-limiting, even a 0.2 db boost or cut with a very small Q can make a large difference. Super limiting seems to highlight problems in the material's frequency curve, so be aware that you may need to make really slight adjustments.

But what the hell do I know.

[audiosymmetry]

Poorglory, can you give me a rough play by play of your process?

1. How many dB's below 0 should a mix be before compression/limiting etc? In other words, how much headroom do you allow before applying compression/limiting?

2. Do you use a specific plugin of any kind to compress/limit?
3. Should my ratio settings on the compressor be as high as possible if I'm compressing the master track?

[PoorGlory]

Again, I'm not a pro ME, and my only outboard that I use for mastering is an Ashly parametric.

In a nutshell, I never compress my mix during the mixdown. I wait until mastering before applying any EQ or compression. I'll basically take my stereo mix, run it into the Ashly and then back into my DAW, and apply some slight limiting, usually with the dreaded L2, or the Massey L2007. I'll use the Ashly to get a nice musical curve going, and then I'll stick a multiband compressor (Waves Linear Multiband... I could go on forever about Waves' business practices, but this is a damn good plug) between the Ashly and the limiter. Usually I will only compress the low end to keep it under control for severe limiting. The Linear Multiband is also a good way of raising and lowering wide frequency ranges so the material hits the limiter the right way. After the multiband, I'll usually use a good surgical EQ to fix any issues that come up as I gradually increase the the amount of limiting applied. It takes a while for me to get it right, and I usually like to sit on a good version for a day or so and let it sink in until I know what I want to change.

But like I said, I'm NOT a pro ME. I get good results doing it my way, and I love the challenge.

[KEYBEEETSSS]

Originally Posted by sloper

Some mixes should not be mastered, they should be remixed!

"EVRYBODY SAY AYYYY-A-A-A-MANNNN".....

[KEYBEEETSSS]

Originally Posted by audiosymmetry

thus recompressing it as an mp3 again. is that baaad? :D

YEAH IT ACTUALLY IS; WHEN AN MP3 IS CONVERTED MORE THAN ONCE IT'S STARTS TO SOUND LIKE U'VE RAN IT THRU A NICE FLANGE + CHORUS WITH A SMIDGE OF VERB.....

[FossilTooth]

How come I'm the only one who doesn't think it's unusual that an unmastered mix is roughly 6db lower in level than a contemporary mastered record?

Don't stress about it. It SHOULD be quieter.

If your mix is as loud as a commercial CD, either you're doing something wrong (does it sound like ass?) or you're a god among men who is able to create a perfect sounding loud master while mixing (does it sound amazing, and do you bleed honey, cry wine and piss coca-cola?).

If it sounds good it is good. Get your stuff mastered. Preferably by someone else, who specializes in mastering.

There are too many things to worry about in getting a great mix to go crazy wondering if the subs are exactly perfect, if the top could be just a hair brighter, and if you should be squeezing out 2 more db of limiting.

[FossilTooth]

How come I'm the only one who doesn't think it's unusual that an unmastered mix is roughly 6db lower in level than a contemporary mastered record?

Don't stress about it.

If your mix is as loud as a commercial CD, either you're doing something wrong (doesn't sound like ass?) or you're a god among men who is able to create master perfect sounding loud master while mixing (does it sound amazing, and do you bleed honey, cry wine and piss coca-cola?).

If it sounds good it is good. Get your stuff mastered. Preferably by someone else, who specializes in mastering.

There are too many things to worry about in getting a great mix to go crazy wondering if the subs are exactly perfect, if the top could be just a hair brighter, and if you should be squeezing out 2 more db of limiting.

[FossilTooth]

To go into a little more depth:

I don't know what the hell my usual ME does to make my mixes sound as loud as they do. I for one, push my mixbus comp fairly hard.... if you think about 3 db of GR is hard!

When mixing ITB, I sometimes use two comps in series, normally reducing around 4 db total as the loudest sections. I use these more for sculpting and cohesion than level. I'll put a limiter up before printing a ref for the client. It might take off anywhere about 3 db maybe 4db at the loudest peak. I really use it to bring my mix from 0vu up to full scale.

So, we're talking about a few db of peak limiting, and a few db of compression. After a grand total of 6-8db of GR on a client ref, do my mixes sound as loud as commercial CD's? No!

I' have found that I can squeeze more than 8db maximum GR between to serial mixbus comps if I really wanted to, and easily limit a lot more than a total of 4db at the highest peak without detriment. However, I choose not to give such hot mixes to my ME. The clients love 'em though. This amount of GR can be fairly transparent if done decently. You average contemporary commercial CD is being pushed harder than that no doubt. If I were to give them to a good ME, would he still be able to make them louder without destroying them? Hell yes. How exactly? I don't know. If I did, I'd be an ME. Serial limiting, EQ, and comp I assume. The sound of a good loud master isn't the sound of a single L2 pegged at 9db of GR. On the other hand many good sounding records have a fairly heavy handed amount of limiting spread across a couple of different units.

Some cats use a lot of limiters on groups and individual tracks when mixing. I don't. I don't really like listening to limiters all day long, so I do a lot of fader rides, and find other ways of controlling excessive transients of need be. I don't think a good sounding loud master needs lots of individual limiters on groups and instruments, but there are a lot of excellent mixers (much better than me) who have come swear by these tactics.... and there are many who don't.

[FossilTooth]

To go into a little more depth:

I don't know what the hell my usual ME does to make my mixes sound as loud and as good as he does.

On average, I probably push about 3 db of GR out of my mixbus comp. When mixing ITB, I often use two comps in series, sometimes reducing around 4-5 db combined at the loudest sections. When I do this, it's for sculpting and cohesion rather level. I'll usually put a limiter up before printing a ref for the client. It might take off about 3 db maybe 4db at the loudest peak. I really use it to bring my mix from 0vu up to full digital scale.

We're talking about a few db of peak limiting, and a few db of compression. So, after a grand total of 6-8db of maximum GR on a client ref, do my mixes sound as loud as commercial CD's? Hell No! Should it? No!

You should be able to easily squeeze more than 8db maximum GR between two serial mixbus comps if I really want to, and easily limit a lot more than a total of 4db at the highest peak without serious detriment, if your settings are right. This amount of GR can be fairly transparent if done decently. You average contemporary commercial CD is being pushed harder than that no doubt. If such a mix were to give them to a good ME, would he still be able to make it louder without destroying it? If you haven't destoryed it already, then yes.. How exactly? I don't know. If I did, I'd be an ME. Serial limiting, EQ, and comp. Although the sound of a good loud master isn't the sound of a single L2 pegged at 9db average GR, many good sounding records have a fairly heavy handed amount of limiting and compression spread across a couple of different units.

Some cats use a lot of limiters on groups and individual tracks when mixing. I don't. I don't really like listening to limiters all day long, so I do a lot of fader rides, and find other ways of controlling excessive transients if need be. I don't think a good sounding loud master needs lots of individual limiters on groups and instruments, but there are a lot of excellent mixers (much better than myself) who have come swear by these tactics.... and there are many who don't.

[bwmac]

You may want to read this article about mastering and loudness


Propellerhead Software

Personally, I use cakewalk, sonar-6 DAW for recording and a really good
plug-in and video of how it works is here
Boost 11 Peak Limiter

LOL but I use T-Racks or just run it through the tape player and it comes out bang on the money.
This cheep tape player that I picked up at a garage sale adds that nice analogue feel
and automatically adjust the level

LOL GET MORE GEAR LoL