Multiple speakers for mastering?

[Thomas W. Bethe]

I see a lot of pictures of mastering rooms with multiple pairs of speakers in them. My experience is that you get a pair of speakers, learn to use them as a tool and rely on them for your mastering. I therefore have two questions.

1) Of what use do you make of the "other" speakers in your room?

and

2) It has been my experience that more that one pair of speakers in a room tends to change the sound of the room just by the extra speakers being in the room. How do you minimize this effect or have you ever taken OUT the other speakers to see how the room sounds without them physically in the room?

Thanks for any and all replies.

[Andy Krehm]

Originally Posted by Thomas W. Bethe

I see a lot of pictures of mastering rooms with multiple pairs of speakers in them. My experience is that you get a pair of speakers, learn to use them as a tool and rely on them for your mastering. I therefore have two questions.

1) Of what use do you make of the "other" speakers in your room?

and

2) It has been my experience that more that one pair of speakers in a room tends to change the sound of the room just by the extra speakers being in the room. How do you minimize this effect or have you ever taken OUT the other speakers to see how the room sounds without them physically in the room?

Thanks for any and all replies.

Thomas, you are an experienced mastering engineer so I'm sorry to state the obvious here but the reason they are in some rooms and not others is b/c there is more than one way to work and get good results.

I have two sets of small speakers, the infamous Aurotones and a pair of Yamahas YST-M10 computer speakers. Since they are small, I'm sure they do not affect the sound of my room.

I don't use them all the time but sometimes it is helpful to hear how certain masters will be changed by these speakers. Sometimes its not as obvious as on the main system. The Yamaha's seem to be really good at letting me know how certain bottom end frequencies will distort on smaller speakers, again, not as obvious on the mains.

Even though I've changed my primary speaker set-up three times to date, I've always used these two sets of small monitors throughout my mastering career.

B/C of the smaller size of my room, I use satellites and stereo subs for my main system. They are setup so that I can solo either the subs or satellites. I find this useful if I am having trouble figuring out how to match a bottom end with another track or sometimes to see how the track will hold up on a good speaker system without a lot of bottom. I used to do this with shelving eq but this is easier and faster although the roll-off is always the same.

On my "not too pressing" agenda is a desire to buy a typically cheap surround system so I can hear how people are messing up our stereo masters. There may be some adjustment I can make from time to time without ruining the sound for a good system but unless I have them in my room, I would have to trust my memory and I really prefer to do these kinds of A/B's on the spot.

One thing you can be sure of is that you will get lots of each opinions on this subject and that's what they are b/c there is no right answer!

BTW, I am on my second set of Yamahas YST-M10 computer speakers but they are first generation computer speakers and are no longer available. If anyone has a set or two lying around that they want to sell, please PM me.

[Jerry Tubb]

Originally Posted by Thomas W. Bethe

Of what use do you make of the "other" speakers in your room?

In addition to the big Dunlavy SC-IV/A monitors, I use a single mono Fostex 6301B for an alternative view.

It's interesting to hear just how much music will fit into a 4 inch speaker, with 10 watts power.

It's fed from the Benchmark DAC-1 headphone out, to a special mono sum box, to the Fostex.

Can be very revealing about what might happen out in the real world.

6301 Series Powered Monitors

Occasionally check Yamaha NS-10s in my office, iMac speakers, trucks' Bose system, & Grado phones as well.

JT

[|-<>-|]

Originally Posted by Thomas W. Bethe

It has been my experience that more that one pair of speakers in a room tends to change the sound of the room just by the extra speakers being in the room. How do you minimize this effect or have you ever taken OUT the other speakers to see how the room sounds without them physically in the room?

what a strange thing to say. Do you limit the number of clients who can attend a session also, surely the mass of a client is far greater than an extra pair of speakers in the room.

Do you make them take off their coats before entering the room? if they are bald do you give them a felt hat to stop reflections from their heads!

what if they are really fat, do you take into account their BMA and compensate for the acoustics.

|-<>-|

[lucey]

Full volume (85dbA+) and all the harmonics of the mains can be tiring. Especially in long days, one after the other. Of course I use the primary speakers for the primary work. Yet if I need to double check 350-500hz, or the vocal, or how much click is in the kick, the Avantones tell those things very clearly and easily at almost any (lower) volume. Not having to listen through a huge sound full of harmonic content to check a small aspect is just easier and it rests the ears for that time, helping the work that needs to happen on the mains at full tilt. If the total work on a track is 30 minutes, the Avantones are maybe 3.

[grandmasters]

Originally Posted by |-<>-|

what a strange thing to say. Do you limit the number of clients who can attend a session also, surely the mass of a client is far greater than an extra pair of speakers in the room.

Do you make them take off their coats before entering the room? if they are bald do you give them a felt hat to stop reflections from their heads!

what if they are really fat, do you take into account their BMA and compensate for the acoustics.

|-<>-|

I believe people placement is as important as speaker placement. I definitely notice a difference depending on how many people are in the studio.

I actually limit the amount in my studio to 3 plus myself. There is a chair behind me and two chairs in one of the bass trap alcoves. A forth person tends to stand or sit in a place which noticeably effects the sound of the room.

Noah

[Thomas W. Bethe]

Originally Posted by |-<>-|

what a strange thing to say. Do you limit the number of clients who can attend a session also, surely the mass of a client is far greater than an extra pair of speakers in the room.

Do you make them take off their coats before entering the room? if they are bald do you give them a felt hat to stop reflections from their heads!

what if they are really fat, do you take into account their BMA and compensate for the acoustics.

|-<>-|

Well anything in a room can change the sound of the room. Depending on the SIZE of the speaker it can have some very audible effects both from the mass of the speaker and from the speaker cone moving in and out with the music from the driven speaker. I do notice a difference when we have lots of people in the mastering room which is why we try and limit the number of people in the room to three plus myself.

To answer your questons... Yes I do notice when people have heavy coats or jackets on or when they bring them into the room which is why we have a separate space for them to hang up their jackets and coats. As to hair pieces - never noticed any change and as to FAT people and their BMA never did a study on it but most of the musicians we get are starving anyways so we very seldom get a really FAT person in the room. <GRIN>

My room is pretty well tuned and small changes do make a difference that is audible especially since I am in the room so much and have gotten use to the "sound" of the room or the lack thereof.

If having extra people in your room or having lots of extra dampening due to heavy coats laying about does not effect your room then you either have an amazing room or (the obvious answer).

Thanks for the feedback!

[mosrite]

I would urge caution over letting fat people into your room, they have been known to eat the furniture...

[Thomas W. Bethe]

Originally Posted by mosrite

I would urge caution over letting fat people into your room, they have been known to eat the furniture...

LOL !!!!!!

[Andy Krehm]

Originally Posted by mosrite

I would urge caution over letting fat people into your room, they have been known to eat the furniture...

We have several extra staff members here. Their main job is to assist in balancing the mastering room.

At the start of each session we tune the room, adding the "extras" as needed. When the optimum load is reached, we begin the session.

After lunch, we do it again!

Got to love those intern "extras". Using them is the only way we can turn a profit.

However, we've had to abort a few sessions here over the years when the optimal load could not be achieved with the bodies at hand. When we reschedule, we ask the band to send over some different members next time.

[MASSIVE Master]

I used a pair of MiniPods for two reasons:

1) The client walks in, hears their recording and goes "Wow! I can't believe how much better that sounds!" and I haven't actually done anything yet. So, I flip over to the Pods and say "Is this what you heard before?" and they say "Yeah - Something more like that."

They sound like a typical, slightly "hyped" home stereo system with most of the lows shoved up above 60Hz. "Real world reference."

2) Right now, I'm doing paperwork & billing (and a little forum-surfing) and I have a DVD on in the background to keep me company. The Bryston 2BST pushing the Pods is hot enough - It's like having a pizza warmer in the room. The Pass X250 pushing the 802's is like running a pizza oven by comparison.

Saving energy, cutting back on some wear & tear through the more "mundane" tasks of the week.

On top of that, sometimes it's nice to flip to them for a minute just for the "real world" reference. Just for a minute... Otherwise, I can't stand 'em.

[mosrite]

We have several extra staff members here. Their main job is to assist in balancing the mastering room.

At the start of each session we tune the room, adding the "extras" as needed. When the optimum load is reached, we begin the session.

After lunch, we do it again!

Got to love those intern "extras". Using them is the only way we can turn a profit.

However, we've had to abort a few sessions here over the years when the optimal load could not be achieved with the bodies at hand. When we reschedule, we ask the band to send over some different members next time.

Yes, placement of bodies within a room can be a balancing act...literally.

Imagine a 20 stone man having to balance on one leg on the arm of a sofa for the purpose of 'acoustic tuning.'

[NLP]

Worthwhile bass absorption

[Andy Krehm]

Originally Posted by NLP

Worthwhile bass absorption

Originally Posted by NLP

Aretha & Latifah... Paris only for mid freq.

LOL

[jamsmith]

I have seen one mastering engineer have only 2 client chairs and request no more than 2 people attend the session.

========================================

Here is where I wish we had a method of comparison. In the disscussion I have read, it seems there are different levels of this. Some seem to just use on pair of speakers - period. Other use multiple pairs on the process. Some are in between, they use one pair, but check the results in different enviroments. What I would like to see is how other people judge the work of the single reference MEs vs the multiple reference engineers.

I am not going to doubt the single source guys. I happen to know some of the very best are in this category. I just would hope if you are not among the top few that you would at least verify that your work does indeed translate well from time to time!

However, as a recording engineer who knew he was mixing to final product, I always mixed with 2 sets of speakers and always verifiied in another room and a car. (Sometimes I would even take a mix to and plug it in at a car audio speaker display and switch between the different speakers!) I know I would feel more comfortable getting my work done buy someone who gets "a second opinion" from at least another set of speakers.

[lucey]

Originally Posted by jamsmith

However, as a recording engineer who knew he was mixing to final product, I always mixed with 2 sets of speakers and always verifiied in another room and a car. (Sometimes I would even take a mix to and plug it in at a car audio speaker display and switch between the different speakers!) I know I would feel more comfortable getting my work done buy someone who gets "a second opinion" from at least another set of speakers.

mixing and mastering are different in that respect, the rooms, the mindset, the speakers are different ... one set is totally fine and better for many people.

[MASSIVE Master]

I have seen one mastering engineer have only 2 client chairs and request no more than 2 people attend the session.

I'm one of those too. It gets to "chatty" and difficult to concentrate when there are too many people in the room...

But back to the issue: Better speakers, better room, better ears, better translation.

I used to go nuts (mixing) in studios with three sets of speakers and poorly treated rooms. With *one* set of *good* speakers in a *good* room, you know what it sounds like - and what it's going to sound like somewhere else. That just comes with time spent in a good room with good speakers.

(EDIT) What was the occasion to wake this bad boy up again?

[jamsmith]

Originally Posted by lucey

mixing and mastering are different in that respect, the rooms, the mindset, the speakers are different ... one set is totally fine and better for many people.

Why better for some? How does the second set of speakers effect you personally? Also, do you always send the master out directly from the room or do you listen to it at home or in your car as a second check?

Originally Posted by MASSIVE Master

What was the occasion to wake this bad boy up again?

Someone had create a new thread and this was linked in it by someone else. I still have questions about it. Frankly I really don't see the need to "wake up" a thread. Seems like a new thread can bring a new perspectives especially since the same topic doesn't always mean the same to question, especially to the person asking. I still have question that even at the end of a long thread remain unanswered.

[lucey]

Originally Posted by jamsmith

Why better for some? How does the second set of speakers effect you personally? Also, do you always send the master out directly from the room or do you listen to it at home or in your car as a second check?

Preferences. I use a second set for non critical work only, as I enjoy the variety to reset my ear and keep me fresh. Some people might use level changes, lighting, or just taking a break to do the same.