Transferring Vinyl to .WAV

[alexgdyer]

Hi there everyone. My name is Alex, This is my**first posting as a new member. I would like to know if any one has tips on transferring vinyl to .WAV. I am using Logic 7.1, Bias "Peak" a fireface 400 interface and a Neve 1073 DPD mic pre amp. I have tried many different techniques, however, currently the best that i can achieve is a small,l flat, raspy wav file.
********
-Thank You

[poncival]

Originally Posted by alexgdyer

Hi there everyone. My name is Alex, This is my**first posting as a new member. I would like to know if any one has tips on transferring vinyl to .WAV. I am using Logic 7.1, Bias "Peak" a fireface 400 interface and a Neve 1073 DPD mic pre amp. I have tried many different techniques, however, currently the best that i can achieve is a small,l flat, raspy wav file.
********
-Thank You

Hi Alex,

First off, welcome to Gearslutz! There are lots of cool people on here, and some with jerky personalities. I am one of the latter... Just kidding

"A flat raspy file!" Lemme open up my toolbox and I'll show you a flat rapsy file...


OK, Now on to the important stuff: I would hope that in addition to what you mentioned in your post, that you are using a turntable and a PHONO preamp to do your vinyl transfers. You may not need the 1073 for this process, but now that I look it up, I guess the DPD converters should be better sounding than the fireface 400. I can't see whether the 1073DPD has line inputs or just mic inputs?

Here's what I would do:
1. Plug the turntable into the phono preamp

2. Plug the phono preamp into the line ins of the 1073DPD

2a..if the 1073DPD only has mic ins, you should probably put a couple transformer direct boxes in between the phono preamp and the mic inputs. Either that or try keeping the gain REALLY low and see if that sounds OK. It will probably sound kind of nasty still without the direct boxes...

3. Plug the digital out of the DPD into your fireface 400

4. Set up a track in Logic which gets its signal from those digital inputs, and make sure your digital outputs are set correctly on the 1073

5. Check your levels and make sure you have a little extra room. If possible, find a very loud section on the vinyl and play that a couple times so that you can get some good levels.

6. Track your vinyl to .WAV!


Another possibility would be to skip the 1073 altogether and run the phono preamp directly into the line ins of the fireface 400. You may find this adequate depending on what you are trying to accomplish. It will be easier but may not sound as "Neve-y" as the other way.

Good luck!

[alexgdyer]

Thank you for the info. Unfortunately I do not have a phono preamp. I was under the impression that the Neve was all that I needed to get a clear loud signal. What kind of phono preamp would you suggest to compliment the neves superior build quality.

-Thank you

[huggie]

Originally Posted by alexgdyer

Thank you for the info. Unfortunately I do not have a phono preamp. I was under the impression that the Neve was all that I needed to get a clear loud signal. What kind of phono preamp would you suggest to compliment the neves superior build quality.

-Thank you

I use a Nad PP 2 : NAD Electronics :: PP-2 Phono Preamplifier

Great sound and very reasonable price....

Hugo

[Andy Krehm]

Originally Posted by huggie

I use a Nad PP 2 : NAD Electronics :: PP-2 Phono Preamplifier

Great sound and very reasonable price....

Hugo

We use the Creek Phono Pre-Amp OBH 18, also quite priced quite reasonably

[Cellotron]

fwiw - I'm using the Simaudio Moon LP 5.3 - Simaudio MOON LP5.3 Phono Preamplifier - it's more expensive than the other options mentioned but still relatively reasonably priced. It has a really amazingly clean sound - and has the advantage of additional balanced outs on XLR and adjustable input impedance, input capacitance, and output gain so that you can use a wide variety of both MC and MM cartridges with it.

Best regards,
Steve Berson

[Natural Mystic]

Try a Radial J33 they are only $200. It's like a DI box for a turntable! Plug your turntable into the J33 and then plug that into your Neve, it'll sound sweet. I use mine all the time.

[DrDeltaM]

A real Phono preamp defenately is preferrable, as it'll have the correct RIAA EQ curve for vinyl signals.

[optix]

Just to clarify that for Alex - vinyl is cut with some bass "taken out", and every phono preamp applies a bass boost to counteract it. This is because you physically can't cut vinyl exactly as it sounds; the needle can't move enough to give you the low end.

So, if you use a "normal" (not a proper phono) preamp to bring your turntable's signal up to line level, it won't apply the correct bass boost (that DrDeltaM refers to above) and the result will be raspy and unpleasant.

If you're short of cash even a basic DJ mixer will do the job, but since you're using a Neve I don't imagine you're short of cash

[mattssons]

I think it´s all covered. You need to get a good RIAA, set proper levels use great needles (and clean records).

My preference when transferring vinyl to cd is to cut some lows and add some hights but that´s just me trying to make them sound like all my bright cds.. /Toby

[MBishopSFX]

The RIAA curve induced during the cutting of the disk master cuts bass AND boosts the high end by about 15 dB. The inverse RIAA curve is employed in all normal phono preamps. Your transfers sound "raspy" because you used a mic pre instead of a phono preamp. In cutting the disk master, low end is rolled-off to keep the cutter head within its mechanical limits AND allow more time on a disk side. The high end is boosted so that on playback, with the high end restored to "flat," basic surface noise reduction is in action.

[mikeg]

Can you solder? There are some pretty good phono stage circuits out there if you can. Check out the app notes at National Semi, TI and some of the audio forums. A decent stage can be built for around $50.

[alexgdyer]

Originally Posted by DrDeltaM

A real Phono preamp defenately is preferrable, as it'll have the correct RIAA EQ curve for vinyl signals.

What particular brand or make of phono pre-amp would you say has the most accurate "RIAA EQ" curve. I will research them thoroughly**but if you or anyone else swears by one I would appreciate your suggestions.

I thank all of you for your comments, I am glad to make progress in finding that perfect way to transfer my precious vinyl.

[DrDeltaM]

I never really compared different Phono preamps. The NAD seems a good option anyway, I've had good experience with their power amps in the past.

[KingDaddyO]

Running the output of yer' RIAA compliant phono preamp, into yer' Neve mic pre sounds like a fine signal chain to me. But I just wanted to mention an alternative (and a relatively inexpensive) conversion method that is widely available nowadays. Many turntables now come with an S/PDIF digital output, that will allow you to bypass the analog conversion stage, or to circumvent a long cable run. Long cable runs aren't desireable at all for a phono signal, but they don't pose a large problem for digital.

No doubt, there are many differences in the quality of the conversion filters that are used on different turntable models, but I can tell you that I have used an inexpensive Stanton STR8-80 (~$200) and it wasn't too shabby at the signal conversion thing. Built in RIAA filter as well as many other features.

Ok, audiophiles & purists may now shudder in horror at this suggestion

[807Recordings]

Originally Posted by DrDeltaM

I never really compared different Phono preamps. The NAD seems a good option anyway, I've had good experience with their power amps in the past.

just did a review of the NAD master series components and It was some of the best sounding equipment I have heard to date. Bettered stuff costing multiple times its price range. I am selling my audio research sp9 because of it. STill no phono stage though.

Now I would suggest if you can look second hand for something like an old AR preamp with phono in it or a decent phono stage in the 500 dollar range. Get rid of the Neve as it will only add another chain to a already extremly delicate signal path.

People don't seem to understand that phono stuff is about as touchy as it gets and can make a huge difference with as much as being a tenth of a millimeter out of alignment. I did a dj mix a few years ago mp3 is on our site using a few AR SP9 phono stages and Linn Cartridges. The difference in the recordings was sick!!! I mean even using a stanton people came over when I playing tracks and shocked how good it could sound.

I think it works something like this in areas of improvement:
phono stage 60-70%
Cartdridge 10-15%
tonearm 20-30%
various for the rest.

Just a quick note, once you've transferred it, don't do "noise reduction" if you can avoid it-
I've tried multiple different techniques, and they all take the 'zing' out of the top end, regardless of how clever or CPU-intensive they are-
in other words, if you want perfect sound, you'll need to do multiple recordings and micro-edit out the clicks/pops that can't be gotten rid of.

Happy for someone to contradict me, this is just 'my experience'-

m@

[KingDaddyO]

Originally Posted by soulstudios

Just a quick note, once you've transferred it, don't do "noise reduction" if you can avoid it-
I've tried multiple different techniques, and they all take the 'zing' out of the top end, regardless of how clever or CPU-intensive they are-
in other words, if you want perfect sound, you'll need to do multiple recordings and micro-edit out the clicks/pops that can't be gotten rid of.

Happy for someone to contradict me, this is just 'my experience'-

m@

No contradiction, I agree 99.99%. The exception being those rare cases where you might be able to capture a very clean & accurate noise impulse, and then subtract only that fingerprint from the entire file. But in general, I too have found that most NR settings remove noticeably more than the targeted noise. Manual editing does indeed produce the best results (as it should).

So I'm thanking my lucky stars, because I really enjoy the ambiance which an authentic vinyl surface imparts to a recording, from the vinyl era. thumbsup

[finetuner]

Originally Posted by KingDaddyO

... capture a very clean & accurate noise impulse, and then subtract only that fingerprint from the entire file.

Or better still; subtract that fingerprint only from silent passages. I always try to keep the louder/chorus parts unprocessed whenever possible.

Same indeed for clicks. Just lucky to have software that allows manual declicking (by interpolation) so you don't have to go through micro editing each click... Automatic declicking only if manual treatment would take a week or so...

Cleaning the disc properly definitely hepls.

Peter

[DrDeltaM]

Originally Posted by KingDaddyO

No contradiction, I agree 99.99%. The exception being those rare cases where you might be able to capture a very clean & accurate noise impulse, and then subtract only that fingerprint from the entire file. But in general, I too have found that most NR settings remove noticeably more than the targeted noise. Manual editing does indeed produce the best results (as it should).

So I'm thanking my lucky stars, because I really enjoy the ambiance which an authentic vinyl surface imparts to a recording, from the vinyl era. thumbsup

As product support engineer, I'm using Cedar Cambridge for audio restoration. A fingerprint isn't really needed in general there (tho there are fingerprint-based algorithms in it as well if you like/need).

As for removing more then needed, that's a combination of the quality of the algorithms you use and the settings you use, but you can't generalise here I think. You can get impressive noise reduction without harming the wanted signal when using advanced algorithms like Cedar.

Noise often gives impression of depth and ambiance, so never remove all noise on mixes, as it'll give a very different impression, even if nothing of the wanted signal gets altered.

Declicking and decrackling (combined processing in Cedar Cambridge, 'DeClickle') automatically hasn't been an issue either for me and saves lots of work. In cases of just a few severe clicks and for the rest the normal light clicks and crackle, I'd process automatically at a low setting for the lighter disturbances, and remove the few big clicks manual (just select and process, no manual drawing).

[KingDaddyO]

Originally Posted by finetuner

Or better still; subtract that fingerprint only from silent passages. I always try to keep the louder/chorus parts unprocessed whenever possible.

Same indeed for clicks. Just lucky to have software that allows manual declicking (by interpolation) so you don't have to go through micro editing each click... Automatic declicking only if manual treatment would take a week or so...

Cleaning the disc properly definitely hepls.

Peter

Originally Posted by DrDeltaM

As product support engineer, I'm using Cedar Cambridge for audio restoration. A fingerprint isn't really needed in general there (tho there are fingerprint-based algorithms in it as well if you like/need).

As for removing more then needed, that's a combination of the quality of the algorithms you use and the settings you use, but you can't generalise here I think. You can get impressive noise reduction without harming the wanted signal when using advanced algorithms like Cedar.

Noise often gives impression of depth and ambiance, so never remove all noise on mixes, as it'll give a very different impression, even if nothing of the wanted signal gets altered.

Declicking and decrackling (combined processing in Cedar Cambridge, 'DeClickle') automatically hasn't been an issue either for me and saves lots of work. In cases of just a few severe clicks and for the rest the normal light clicks and crackle, I'd process automatically at a low setting for the lighter disturbances, and remove the few big clicks manual (just select and process, no manual drawing).

Good points all around. 'Declickle' eh? I like that. Haven't heard about Cedar but it does sound interesting.

[Jerry Tubb]

Originally Posted by alexgdyer

I would like to know if any one has tips on transferring vinyl to .WAV.

1. use a great turntable, cartridge, & stylus

2. use a great phono preamp

3. use great A/D conversion

I wouldn't worry about ticks, pops, and groove noise... part of the charm of vinyl.

JT

[Lownotes]

Originally Posted by MBishopSFX

The RIAA curve induced during the cutting of the disk master cuts bass AND boosts the high end by about 15 dB. The inverse RIAA curve is employed in all normal phono preamps. Your transfers sound "raspy" because you used a mic pre instead of a phono preamp. In cutting the disk master, low end is rolled-off to keep the cutter head within its mechanical limits AND allow more time on a disk side. The high end is boosted so that on playback, with the high end restored to "flat," basic surface noise reduction is in action.

Great post. BTW: I've enjoyed your work for a looong time.

I always chuckle at (vinyl) purists who will not place an EQ into their signal path, when the signal originates with a HUGE amount of EQ!

[johnmanning]

this current wave of ion usb tables and tables with built in preamps/converters are leading to a tooooooooooon of horrible vinyl rips floating around on the internet. its a shame, because it seems like for once the internet can do good by archiving rare and out of print records, but then these digital tables just suck any hope of quality out of the equation.
that being said, i'm far from ritzy about my phono preamp choice, but at least its not packed in the same 13 inch square along with everything required to play a record.

[Stevil]

ELP Laser Turntable: plays vinyl records without a needle

[Cellotron]

Originally Posted by Jerry Tubb

I wouldn't worry about ticks, pops, and groove noise... part of the charm of vinyl.

JT

To me this factor depends a lot more on the condition of the vinyl and the relative loudness of the clicks. If it's a few egregious clicks that are very prominent I find the best procedure instead of ignoring it is to just isolate those short areas and run a declicker only on these places instead of running a declicker on the entire track - this is fairly easy with a DAW app and a decent declicking algorithm.

For inexpensive PC native declickers / decrackler options - I've gotten very good mileage out of the declickers in the DX plugin suites in the Sony NR 2.0 bundle - Sony Creative Software - Noise Reduction DirectX Plug-In 2.0 and in the Acon Digital Studio Clean - Acon Digital Media, Studio Clean

Agreed that a good cleaning prior to the transfer can really help to diminish clicks at the source.

Best regards,
Steve Berson

[KingDaddyO]

Originally Posted by johnmanning

this current wave of ion usb tables and tables with built in preamps/converters are leading to a tooooooooooon of horrible vinyl rips floating around on the internet. its a shame, because it seems like for once the internet can do good by archiving rare and out of print records, but then these digital tables just suck any hope of quality out of the equation.

I don't know anything about these ion tables you mentioned, but there are very good sounding digital tables available, which do a good job of conversion. Mind you, I'm not comparing any digital table against the most ridiculous analog audiophile gear out there, but results are subjective - and very good results are definitely available with some digital tables.

Originally Posted by johnmanning

that being said, i'm far from ritzy about my phono preamp choice, but at least its not packed in the same 13 inch square along with everything required to play a record.

I don't see why the size of the table housing, has any inherent relevance to the quality of the A/D converters. Quality is a function of cost, component, and design choices.

[mix-it-well]

Originally Posted by alexgdyer

Thank you for the info. Unfortunately I do not have a phono preamp. I was under the impression that the Neve was all that I needed to get a clear loud signal. What kind of phono preamp would you suggest to compliment the neves superior build quality.

-Thank you

but you haven't bought the neve because you needed a phono preamp?

[alexgdyer]

Originally Posted by mix-it-well

but you haven't bought the neve because you needed a phono preamp?

Yes, I bought the Neve with the impression that that's all i needed to rip vinyl. Now I've come to find that a phono amp is all that is needed. Do you have any specific brands to recommend

[KingDaddyO]

Originally Posted by alexgdyer

Yes, I bought the Neve with the impression that that's all i needed to rip vinyl. Now I've come to find that a phono amp is all that is needed. Do you have any specific brands to recommend

Alex, I don't own any discrete phono preamps so I can't advise you on that subject ... but there are many fine stereo pre-amps available on the used market - and many of these pre-amps from the vinyl era have excellent specs, include at least 1 set of phono inputs, and are very low cost.

For ex. here is one on eBay right now:
HAFLER DH-101 PreAmp Preamplifier - (item 260147129296 end time Aug-14-07 09:30:06 PDT)

Here is a link to the manual for this preamp:
http://www.hafler.com/techsupport/pd...preamp_man.pdf

I have one of these Haflers. They are fine preamps and also have 2 sets of phono inputs. There are many others brands as well, so you should have no problem finding something reasonable that will do the job.