Mastering plugins are doing weird things to my mix - am I mixing it wrong?

[Gammon2004]

Hey slutz - So I just recently started mixing rock music and my first project is just as a favor to a friend of mine - I'm hoping to use it to learn more about mixing as well. The apparent problem I'm running into is this: Whenever I mix something to get it sounding good without any mastering plugin on it, and then put something like LinMB and L2 or Ozone on it to get an idea of what it will sound like mastered to -10 RMS, it seems to completely change the balance of the mix. Specifically, the snare and other transients just seem to get lost completely in the mastered version. This causes me to go back to the mix and change things around until I can get it sounding good with the mastering plugins on it, but then when I take them off, the unmastered mix sounds almost silly to me. My friend is definitely going to take his EP to a professional mastering engineer to get it mastered, so my real question is whether I should mix as if the pro mastering will also kill the transients (i.e. turn up the snare so loud it sounds funny to me) or if I should just mix it so it sounds good to me and assume that pro equipment will be able to make it sound louder without killing the balance of the drums. To that end, I've included two very short .wav samples of the song I'm working on right now, one with LinMB and L2 on it and the other the exact same without mastering, which results in having the snare turned up 'too loud' for my taste - is that just me? Anyway those two samples are up at http://www.jamesgammonproductions.com/slutz/ - comments on them and on my general predicament are *greatly* appreciated!


James

[Greg Reierson]

This is an awesome example of why "mastering" plugs have not taken over the world. Even if you're just starting out as a mixer, you already know when something sounds bad, which seems to be an ability a lot of young engineers lose the more they read recording magazines...

Make it sound good on your end and you're golden. Your pro ME of choice will be able to take your good mix and make it sound the way you want without having to overhype the mix in such an unusual way.


Greg Reierson
Rare Form Mastering

[lofi]

tell your friend that he would be happier to take all this to pro mix eng instead of pro master eng. tell him to mix for the master. thats it.

[Fat larry]

Originally Posted by lofi

tell your friend that he would be happier to take all this to pro mix eng instead of pro master eng. tell him to mix for the master. thats it.

UHH

[lofi]

Originally Posted by Fat larry

UHH

what ?

...just recently started mixing rock music...
...I'm hoping to use it to learn more about mixing...
...friend is definitely going to take his EP to a professional mastering engineer to get it mastered...

better to spend money where it really counts. that would be mix. no mastering god can do miracles. but good mix even if you slap "mastering plugin" on it survives.
i cant figure out better solution man.



anywayz

[daillman]

Originally Posted by lofi

what ?




better to spend money where it really counts. that would be mix. no mastering god can do miracles. but good mix even if you slap "mastering plugin" on it survives.
i cant figure out better solution man.

i agree, look at the mix as the bodywork for a cars paint job.if the body work is bad then it will make the paint man look bad and the job will not look good no matter how much shine you put on it.but when the body work is up to par then the paint man looks like a genius and its not har to make the job look good,so in short what im saying why give problems to a mastering guy to try to fix that could have been taken care of in the mix,when you do that its not hard to make the whole thing shine.

anywayz

masterlabs in orlando is the shit im not affiliated but trace knows what he's doing.he has a myspace..

[daillman]

agree, look at the mix as the bodywork for a cars paint job.if the body work is bad then it will make the paint man look bad and the job will not look good no matter how much shine you put on it.but when the body work is up to par then the paint man looks like a genius and its not har to make the job look good,so in short what im saying why give problems to a mastering guy to try to fix that could have been taken care of in the mix,when you do that its not hard to make the whole thing shine.

[Gammon2004]

Hmn, thanks for the advice, I guess. Did anyone listen to the samples I put up? Is there something so drastically wrong with the mix that this is why you recommend he send it somewhere else for mixing? The good news here is that I have plenty of time to keep tweaking the mix until it sounds good, and I was hoping this thread and comments on my samples would help me to do that. Thanks!


James

[Bob Yordan]

I have listened to your samples, if you need to mix that way to get that mastered result, it complicates mixing very much.

Perhaps you should put less plugs in the chain? I mostly have max 2-3 plugs that has specified tasks.

Also, plugs output/input levels tweaking can be very important.

The music sound cool.

Best wishes

[lofi]

use the force luke














i hope they got vst version

[Fat larry]

Originally Posted by lofi

what ?




better to spend money where it really counts. that would be mix. no mastering god can do miracles. but good mix even if you slap "mastering plugin" on it survives.
i cant figure out better solution man.



anywayz

My mistake,I thought you were contradicting yourself.

[lord_bunny]

The mix sounds nice... but the snare was a bit out of the picture

[Gammon2004]

Thanks, I appreciate it - what do you mean by 'out of the picture' though?


James

[defjamm]

try this: mix it so that it sounds good (without compensation for limiters). then try with ozone only to use the limiter, intelligent mode, slider to the left(clipping). this way your drums won't be as "squashed/killed" as with the l2.

[peeder]

I think you oughtta go back to tracking. If your tracks are good, the mix will be easy. No mixing can fix bad tracks.

I think you oughtta go back to doing the arrangement. If your arrangement is good, the tracks will just come right out of the musicians. No tracking techinque can fix a bad arrangement.

I think you oughtta go back to songwriting. If your song is good, the arrangement will come naturally. No arrangement can fix a bad song.

I think you oughtta pick a better artist. If you've got a compelling artist, they'll bring home any song for you no matter what you do with it. No song is good enough to survive an uninteresting artist.

[Methlab]

1. When you trak don't mix anything until everything is done. So when you are lsitening to the song, you are hearing a completely unmixed version. It needs to already sound really good just like this.

2. Mix your song. If you mix into a compressor fire that puppy up early on. Just EQcompress/distort the channels and groups at first..get them all to sit right..then add delays and reverbs. This really helps.

3. Master the ounced track by boosting the volume of the 2track mix fader all the way up. Send this into a group with a limiter on it that is pulled down 1db. This will ensure that you do not lose your snare drum in the mix. I think you are losing your snare because you are compressing way too hard trying to make the song loud.

I did this exact sequence on the first song on my myspace page. It is at -9 RMS, and that is plenty loud for me. I barely compressed it, and the snare never gets lost.

[defjamm]

Originally Posted by Gammon2004

Thanks, I appreciate it - what do you mean by 'out of the picture' though?

probably too loud, because you compensated for the limiter. i don't think there is a problem with your method of mixing, you just use the wrong tool (linmb, l2) for achieving loudness and still keeping the drums punchy.

[Winey]

Originally Posted by peeder

I think you oughtta go back to tracking. If your tracks are good, the mix will be easy. No mixing can fix bad tracks.

I think you oughtta go back to doing the arrangement. If your arrangement is good, the tracks will just come right out of the musicians. No tracking techinque can fix a bad arrangement.

I think you oughtta go back to songwriting. If your song is good, the arrangement will come naturally. No arrangement can fix a bad song.

I think you oughtta pick a better artist. If you've got a compelling artist, they'll bring home any song for you no matter what you do with it. No song is good enough to survive an uninteresting artist.

LOL!!