Getting my first set of Mastering Refs today!

[illacov]

I'm siked!!

This is a great day and age we live in where I can contract someone from California to master an album and I live in New York State.

Cheers to you all!

I'm an official mastering convert!!

Can't say it enough, Sound Bites Dog absolutely ROCKS!!!

Peace
Illumination

[illacov]

As The Three Stooges would say...........


SUCCESS SUCCESS SUCCESS


Sound Bites Dog ROCKSSSSS!!!

Whoever said that mastering at 32 bucks a song is trash should wake up and smell the coffee...

Mastering can be had for an economical rate and sometimes you gotta figure that if all Mastering Engineers charged 1 to 2 grand an album then alot MORE people would stay away from it.

Now that Ive gotten my feet wet, IM STILL going to use Sound Bites Dog.

I'm really loving how he's supporting the indie world by keeping his rates reasonably priced.

Plus he does make money - IN VOLUME.

Ive got local mastering houses in upstate new york that charge twice what Sound Bites Dog charges and Im not seeing the 500 dollar difference.

I think I actually have better sounding masters!

This is all from a very low end studio, on a crappy mixing board, with a mic nobody likes (very much on here) and a preamp only a few use, but most always recommend something they like even better.

So I leave this for the mastering sharks.

Im not going to put up any audio examples, armchair qbs need not apply here.

I just know and understand that I got a great job done at a price a great majority of you guys poo pooed.

Thank you again Sound Bites Dog.

Check their myspace page as well as their main page. (We should be on their main page sometime soon!)

} SOUND BITES DOG {

And no I didn't get paid to say this. Plus Sound Bites Dog is in California, Im in New York State.

Peace
Illumination

[peeder]

Monitoring:
Presonus Central Station
Hafler 9505 Transnova power amp
Yamaha NS-10's with SW-10
Dynaudio BM5A monitors

When I'm measuring up *anyone* I always look at their monitors first.

Trying to use NS10's and BM5A's for mastering speaks for itself.

Yeah, you might be happy anyway...

[lucidwaves]

Originally Posted by peeder

When I'm measuring up *anyone* I always look at their monitors first.

Trying to use NS10's and BM5A's for mastering speaks for itself.

Yeah, you might be happy anyway...

If the engineer knows them and knows how they translate, isn't that what matters?

[peeder]

Originally Posted by lucidwaves

If the engineer knows them and knows how they translate, isn't that what matters?

How about choosing to have a barber to shave you while you both ride bicycles. "If the barber knows how to handle a razor, isn't that what matters?"

[lucidwaves]

All I'm saying is that the proof is in the pudding. I'd trust ears I know and respect using good gear, over ears I dont know or respect using the most exceptional gear on the planet.

[illacov]

Originally Posted by peeder

When I'm measuring up *anyone* I always look at their monitors first.

Trying to use NS10's and BM5A's for mastering speaks for itself.

Yeah, you might be happy anyway...

You're damn right Im happy...maybe you would be too 300 posts ago if you got your fingers working and checked out his samples.

Not too many mastering sites offer examples of their clients work, you have to always go check out the album....

Han's stuff sounds great as MP3s which should all things being equal sound great on cd as well.

To be honest, I did this album expecting to have to master it myself.

Doing so would lead to me being reamed out because I dont own a pair of B&W monitors.

If the guy masters on NS10s and Dynaudios then fine. I NOTICED the monitors too, but his test master sounded so f*cking good, I wasnt going to ask him how he got such a good master.

Does it ever occur to you guys that people CAN leave their studio and reference their mixes or masters elsewhere??

Next time you go to GC hope its like the one by me where they have 13 different pairs of nice monitors for you to run your refs thru.

Im sure if Hans wanted to he could make a phone call and bring his masters to a friends studio to check if his masters translate well.

In the meantime, you sir are using the same criteria that my business partner uses to critque our work. THE SH*T NO ONE NOTICES...

Who will ask what monitors were used when they listen to our cd?? EXCEPT other musicians???

Should this matter??

What about the monitors I MIXED ON???

Sometimes to me the gearlist should be a secret until you have all your ducks in a row, because people are beyond predjudicial when it comes to evaluating your stuff based on what you used.

Go to his site and tell me about his masters.

Are they saying NS10 all over them??

Or are you buying some as we speak.

FWIW I dont mix on NS10s but I dont see why knowing your room and having great ears, prevents you from getting great results on lesser gear.

Peace
Illumination

[illacov]

Excellent analogy.....

Let me help you, you're saying that using NS10s to master is like trying to get a clean shave with a dull razor.

Ok help phase over....

Who said anything about bicycles.

Khrushchev would be proud of your barbed commentary.

Peace
Illumination

Originally Posted by peeder

How about choosing to have a barber to shave you while you both ride bicycles. "If the barber knows how to handle a razor, isn't that what matters?"

[redstudio]

IF YOU DON'T MIND ME ASKING...how much did you pay total? How many songs, etc...

Thanks,
C

[lucidwaves]

Originally Posted by peeder

How about choosing to have a barber to shave you while you both ride bicycles. "If the barber knows how to handle a razor, isn't that what matters?"

I can do analogies too, see:
The goal is to get from point a to point b. One person buys a BMW to get there the other buys a Honda. Guess what? They both get from a to b.

I currently use Dynaudio monitors for mastering and my clients have never complained. Yes, I do plan to upgrade to higher resolution speakers, not because I cannot do my job without them, but because it will be easier for me to do my job.

Also, there are different price points for different project needs. Here is another analogy:
One person goes to Jose Eber in Hollywood to get their haircut for $200 from a stylist who uses gold plated shears and wears a solid platinum top hat, another person goes to supercuts and gets a haircut for $17 from a stylist who uses regular stainless steel shears and no hat whatsoever. They are both happy with the results, and no one had to ride a bicycle to get their hair cut...

My point boils down to this:
People get caught up in high-end gear elitism when it's the ear and experience that matter more. And while high-end gear may prove useful in making it easier for a good engineer to achieve the result required, expense has never rivaled experience.

[illacov]

Originally Posted by redstudio

IF YOU DON'T MIND ME ASKING...how much did you pay total? How many songs, etc...
C

....
Redstudio I pmed you check out your inbox please
Peace
Illumination
Thanks,

[dekline]

Thanks for the props Illumination... it is an unexpected and welcome gesture.

First off, I don't use NS10's to master... I use Dynaudios.

I have nothing to add to anybody else's arguments re: my monitoring chain except that this is not just an abstract argument involving bicycles and straight razors... look at Universal Mastering Studio East's re-mastering job on the CD "Power to the People and the Beats: Public Enemy's Greatest Hits"... it is shrill, piercing, over-compressed and wholly unlike the original mixes/masters. I'm sure their equipment list trumps mine by a power of 1000 but that didn't seem to help. There's plenty more examples where that came from.

Give me half my equipment list and I could do better.

Give a boy Lance Armstrong's bike and he won't win the Tour De France, but good luck with that.

Love ya,
h
} SOUND BITES DOG {

[lucidwaves]

Originally Posted by dekline

Give a boy Lance Armstrong's bike and he won't win the Tour De France, but good luck with that.

The best bicycle analogy yet!

[jayfrigo]

This is an age-old argument. Experience counts for more than gear for sure. However, nobody could say with a straight face that the monitoring chain, including the room, doesn't matter in mastering. You can't fix what you can't hear, and even if you do pretty well for a while, eventually you will miss something important with an inferior chain. Many Dynaudios are reasonable speakers, and certainly far more appropriate than NS10s for mastering. With a sub it's not a bad place to start if set up well in a good room.

Moving beyond that, anybody can buy gear. The reason you pay hundreds per hour at Sterling or other top houses is not because of the gear. It may make their job easier, but it is the experience and track record that pull in the clients and enable them to charge what they charge. A real room and real gear is simply expected at that level. At a lower level, some may take gear as a sign of seriousness, but it may be just be the sign of a trust fund. Regardless, in the end, to have both gear and ear is better than either one alone.

Talking about Lance, a kid on his bike won't win, but Lance isn't riding and winning on a Huffy 3-speed either. Just because one thing is of greater importance doesn't make the other thing of no importance.

[Ackman]

Originally Posted by jayfrigo

This is an age-old argument. Experience counts for more than gear for sure. However, nobody could say with a straight face that the monitoring chain, including the room, doesn't matter in mastering. You can't fix what you can't hear, and even if you do pretty well for a while, eventually you will miss something important with an inferior chain. Many Dynaudios are reasonable speakers, and certainly far more appropriate than NS10s for mastering. With a sub it's not a bad place to start if set up well in a good room.

Moving beyond that, anybody can buy gear. The reason you pay hundreds per hour at Sterling or other top houses is not because of the gear. It may make their job easier, but it is the experience and track record that pull in the clients and enable them to charge what they charge. A real room and real gear is simply expected at that level. At a lower level, some may take gear as a sign of seriousness, but it may be just be the sign of a trust fund. Regardless, in the end, to have both gear and ear is better than either one alone.

Talking about Lance, a kid on his bike won't win, but Lance isn't riding and winning on a Huffy 3-speed either. Just because one thing is of greater importance doesn't make the other thing of no importance.

Well said!

[Thomas W. Bethe]

illacov,

When I first interned in a mastering studio the one thing that struck me was that everything in the studio was purchased for one reason - to make the music sound the best it could while it was being mastered. We had Studer tape decks, custom built monitors that went from the floor to the ceiling, a Neumann transfer console that had been completely rebuilt, two SONTEC eq's and a lot of play-toys that were all top shelf. When we did a master it came out sounding professional and the clients were always more than pleased. The person who I was learning from had very good ears and was a professional in every sense of the word. He was able to take the equipment we had and use it to the fullest extent. When the masters left our place they were the best that they could be.

When I started my own mastering operation I tried very hard to follow the guidelines I had learned at the studio I interned at. I got the best equipment I could afford, I hired an acoustician to design the room, I got really good monitors and I spent a lot of time listening to material that was widely acknowledged by most as some of the best mastering around. I also did a lot of mastering for free for my friends and others and was very attuned to their comments and suggestions.

My paying clients all seem happy with the results of my mastering and most of them have continued to use us for all their projects. I guess that in this world of "I can do it cheaper or faster" that is about all one can expect.

I looked at the website for Sound Bites Dog and the first thing I noticed was that there was NO acoustical treatment to the room that I could see. The second thing that I noticed was that his desk was sitting against the wall and that the monitors were also placed against the wall which does not make for the best acoustical setup. The next thing I noticed was that he had some really good equipment that is mostly top shelf and if properly used could do some really good mastering for you.

My problem with his setup is that if you cannot hear what you are doing and your monitors are masking what you really hear how can you do any "real" mastering. Agreed that if you "know" your speakers you can do better work with them but what about the bottom two octaves of the material? How are you going to listen to that frequency space if you cannot hear it? The Dynaudios are very good speakers and for mixing they cannot be beat (IMHO) but they would NOT be my first choice for mastering monitors. A room with no acoustical treatments and near field mixing speakers against the wall is probably a prescription for some real problems with standing waves and phase cancellations.

If you are happy with the work that is all that really counts. If Sound Bites Dog is providing those services at a price you can afford then all the better. From your more than glowing reports of your experiences with this studio it would seem to most that you are writing this in collaboration with the studio (maybe in exchange for some lower rates) and trying to convince people that he is better than most any other mastering studio on earth - which may or may not be the truth.

When you make statements like:

"Whoever said that mastering at 32 bucks a song is trash should wake up and smell the coffee...

Mastering can be had for an economical rate and sometimes you gotta figure that if all Mastering Engineers charged 1 to 2 grand an album then a lot MORE people would stay away from it.

Now that Ive gotten my feet wet, I'M STILL going to use Sound Bites Dog.

I'm really loving how he's supporting the indie world by keeping his rates reasonably priced."

It seems to me that either you have never been to a "real" professional mastering studio and had a real professional master your materials or you got taken by someone that was purporting to be a professional mastering engineer and charged you a lot of money but did not provide what you wanted or needed and you got, or thought you got, screwed in the process.

If you are happy with a professional it is good to spread the word. I am sure that he was able to do all l that you wanted at a price you thought attractive. If you over do your praise like some of your posts here then people, like myself, are going to question your motives.

Best of luck! and I hope your relationship with your mastering studio of choice continues to be all that you want it to be.

MTCW

[illacov]

A previous thread I started in the mastering forum that got moved to where to.

OTHER mastering studios said for 32 bucks a song (an advertised rate at the time for a 14 song lp on SBD) would get you garbage.

So my thread here is a follow up to that fact finding mission in the first place.

The reason I went for a lower rate had to do with the thing we call a budget.

We've been recording and tweaking our album for 2 years and I was a split second away from mastering the album myself. Instead I sought other people out.

Yes I actually have visited a few mastering houses in upstate new york.

Others I have simply listened to their work, which is something that people should do sometimes, since eye candy is as much a play on the human psyche as false claims in print.

However, Im familiar with Subcat studios for example and listened to their work.

It wasnt that I wasnt impressed but I wanted more options.

I checked out a local studio around here that does ALOT of indie stuff and sat with the guy for an hour....He has the things that Thomas said SHOULD be in studios, acoustic construction out the ying yang, floating floating, soundproof room, no false bass, blah blah blah.

Great studio right?

All plug ins for mastering, yeck...

I found Hans after bumping into the Mastering guys that offer albums for 100 bucks andthen 200 bucks and then 300 bucks.

I happened to find his site thru a google search and instead of looking at his gearlist or his room, I listened to his music, (something Id done on other site, post gearlist appraisal) it sounds GOOD!

Thomas, you made no mention of how his results sounded and to me, Im wondering why.

Are you inferring that there is something wrong with his results or are you thinking that his results are flukes being that they sound good?

In regards to me getting lower rates for advertising his successes with our projects, I paid 500 dollars for our album to be mastered and have the paypal receipts to prove it!

This was an advertised price and Im sure that if you searched hard enough you would find that in google's search cache.

Hans has worked quickly and made a great effort on our behalf.

I dont understand how someone could mention other mastering studios and then say the same things, but put 1500 dollars on the pricetag or higher and no one accuses them of hyping the mastering studio.

I just heard a nice "vanilla" mastering job by Sterling Studios After Hours and I almost dropped dead because it cost over 1400 dollars!

We got back "charactered" masters for hip hop. The SSAH masters were on Jazz and it came back with that protoolsy digital dead sound.

So to be honest, Im not going to honor claims that IM working for Hans on some level, since Im paying him.

If you can't stomach the fact that I like what he did and that his results are what Im looking at then fine.

You said you used to charge lower rates when you started out etc...

What if you just kept your rates low and made tons in volume??

Like I said, if you know your room, know your gear and KNOW what genre you're working with you can find success.

I didn't know that 1 post is overdoing it!

Sorry for the 1 calorie descriptives.

Its not like link is in my sig!

If you claimed I was overdoing The Goonies, then fine. I'd still tell you to go somewhere with that, Im an independent label owner. I HAVE to advertise anyway I can.

Speaking of which, if you live in Upstate New York.

July 21st, The Goonies are playing AGAIN at Half Penny Pub on Fayette St.

21 and over to drink. 18 to party.

Bring cash. Our album is back from California.

Peace
Illumination

[Thomas W. Bethe]

As I said in my post if you are happy that is all that really counts....

I find it hard to understand what you are saying. Is this experience the greatest thing since sliced bread? or are you simply trying to tell everyone that you are happy with the mastering that Hans did for you. You are smearing it on pretty thick and sometimes this is a sure sign that there is something not quite Kosher.

A simple " I got some great mastering done for $32.00 and hour by a guy called Hans at Sound bites Dog studios in California (} SOUND BITES DOG {) would have sufficed but you are throwing a lot of do do at a lot of other mastering engineers basically saying that they are overcharging for their work. Maybe Hans is doing this in his spare time and he is a well paid aerospace engineer during the day . Most of the pros on this board are doing mastering full time and have to charge rates that will keep them in business. No one that I know is trying to screw anyone but their our "other factors" that have to be considered in setting rates. If you have $300,000 invested in your rooms and equipment then you can't be charging $32.00 per song and making ends meet NO MATTER HOW MUCH mastering you do and most mastering engineers are already working a lot at the rates they are charging.

If he satisfied all your needs that is all one can ask.

Sometimes people have budgets that I cannot do what needs to be done for the amount they have to spend and I keep a listing of lesser priced studios that have been known to do quality work and if you say this guy is good I will add his name to that listing.

Sorry if this is upsetting to you but there are other factors than money to consider when choosing a mastering studio. This is becoming a WalMart world and the phrase "I can get it cheaper at WalMart" is becoming the way people shop for anything from food to automobiles to mastering. I would not be too surprised to see WalMart offering recording and mastering at rock bottom prices in every store. That way you can get your food, clothes and a quick mastering or recording session done at the same time. ( there use to be a music store around here that had a recording studio attached to it and you could buy your new guitar and then go in the back and get a quick recording all in the same day)

There is more to mastering than shopping for the cheapest price. If you have found someone who will do really good mastering for a reasonable price then you are a good shopper.

Best of luck and thanks for the tip about Hans.....I am going to contact him and see if I can send some business his way.

[illacov]

You would be correct. I got Hans Dekline to master my album, that's what I paid for.

And no, good is not subjective to those that know good.
When you know good, its like the difference between 1 and 2 heads on a person. The difference is immediate.

How's that for subjective??

And for God's sakes listen to his material, its on the website for anyone to evaluate, if it sounds like trash then fine, that's what it is to you.

Me, I spend a well spent sum of money on someone who not only gave me a great master, but also has spoken with me about 6 or 7 different times for a total of 8 hours FOR FREE!

I got free consultation, mix tips, no condescending attitude, no hang ups and beyond my slow poke self gettin my stuff together he met his deadline without a hiccup.

If you guys can't stomach why I'd be happy, just understand, I could have been your client as well, but it was simply a matter of money that drove me in the RIGHT direction.

I thought with my wallet AND my ears and made out good or great or swell whatever.

Do I think that SBD will always have crazy low rates??

Hell no!

Once other people get wind of a good mastering house for very economical rates, everything changes over time.

Hans may get additional gear or whatever changes he makes and his prices will eventually go up, just like mine will the more shows we play out and the less we get paid off percentages and instead get paid off the gate.

Its all eventual.

But Im still loving my masters. This is the Mastering forum, Im glad people shared their opinions.

And for the record, Im not the FIRST or the LAST person to like Sound Bites Dog.

Check his clients out, maybe you don't care who they are, but I'm one of them now.

Who else here can say they were some of the early clients of a mastering house, that's now really something special?
(this is no challenge, just curious)
Peace
Illumination

[Masterer]

Originally Posted by illacov

.... but also has spoken with me about 6 or 7 different times for a total of 8 hours FOR FREE!

Wow! You two have talked on the phone for more than an hour at a time 7 times!!

That's more like dating than mastering.


... not that there's anything wrong with that.



just kidding of course. Congrats on your master. and enjoy.

[illacov]

Originally Posted by patrox247

Man...I've been trying to dance around this and not say anything(as have others), but you might for your own reputations sake want to tone it down a little bit. I understand how as a young guy it is easy to get excited about a project and want to shout from the mountain tops about how great something is, but your perception of "good" is quite different than that of some of the vets around here. I'm not saying your guy is bad, but he is young and has a ways to go. It looks as though he's putting together a nice gear list, he's starting to work with talented artists, and you say he's a great guy, so I wish him luck. You're not doing him a great service by coming on this board and talking him up to a bunch of vet ME's who are not going to be impressed with the sonics of his work.
I think it sucks you're putting him in that position.

That you're one of the "vet" ME's, I fail to see how me getting a good deal and sharing that with other people who would rather master with WAVES is a bad thing.

Aren't MEs constantly complaining about people ignoring or downing mastering? I used to be one of them!

Now that i get someone to master my material and I like it, Im doing them a disservice? Just so you know, there's a link to this thread on SBDs blog, so I think you're the one doing a disservice by trying to make me look like some novice poser.

As for guys who ain't impressed.

Id say less than 90 percent of the people on this board, including myself, have NEVER had a record or single that charted.

So f**k what the "vets" think.

My album is not crushed and it sounds good. For it to be hip hop and to be appreciated in the Clear Channel era is huge.

Sorry if I offended someone with my personal mastering good news.

So far backwoods studio owners posing like big timers are trying to sh*t on this thread.

Im not impressed with people who try to come off like experts and they have clients that NOONE has heard of.

Go to SBDs website and notice how the phrases "No Doubt," "Cheap Trick," and "Foo Fighters," are part of the credits there.

Seems like I AM using "vets" as far as Im concerned.
Im beginning to really hate this board. Stuff like this irritates the hell out of me, Ive been a member for quite some time and grown alot because of it and yet there's this disgusting underbelly of couldabeen scum that dwell the halls here. Im sick of this sh*t. Ban me for life or not, I'm tired of these posers!!!!

Mods close the thread before I start swinging for the rafters.

Peace
Illumination

[jayfrigo]

Well, that's quite enough of that.

I'm glad a positive mastering experience was shared here.

Unfortunately not much listening happened after that. People skills are not necessarily everybody's strong suit, so we'll be locking this one now.