new take on loudness wars...

[whosyourdaddy00]

since this is the topic that won't go away...i started thinkin'....

who cares? if the artist/producer/label/a&r guys all "approve" the final cut, then it's done. i've got a feelin' all the late 90's-today's mixes are "timestamped" the same way everything form the 80's sounds 'cheesy'....20 years form now we'll look back and say 'gosh, everything sounds the same'....just like every other decade...so why not live with it? i mean if the ppl want McDonalds, than let them have it.....sure it's unhealthy, but if the consumer wants it, why not let 'em have it....we're on the dawn of a new age in Hi-Def audio and it'll get straitened out in the end...but is it really a "WAR"? i say leave it up to those involved with the creation of the end-product and quit yer bitchin'......times WILL change and so will taste. is it a mistake to make a "loud" song? i don't think so, will we look back 20 years from now and say "geez audio sucked back then"? probably, but what's changed? i'm startin' to think that it's ok now..... it's wierd. but times change and so do tastes, but in light of the plethora of "loudness wars" type threads i've seen here, i've seen nobody admit that these are the times we live in.....i'm sure the sterile sound of 80's synth-pop was gettin' hated on, but some lovable tunes came out of that era......

point is, quit yer bitchin'....we are where we are, and loud is the "in" sound these days....i'm not advocating it, but these type of threads are wearing me out....if you don't wanna do that, fine don't...but i'm tired of ppl bitching about it and dooin' nothing about it past 'recommending' that they don't. hell, if it's THAT big of a deal to you then put your money where your mouth is and REFUSE to put out an over-squashed mix, and turn down that customer. otherwise shut the **** up. i bet the next trend will be everyone dooin' "quiet" albums...then we'll bitch about that.

we are where we are, deal with it. change what you can, but don't sit there and bitch about everything beein' too loud then send your next mix out with an RMS level at -12, and justifying it with "it's what the client wanted"....we are a service industry, and we do what the clients want. (did i just negate my above statement?)

i guess the point is, it ain't our fault. every time has it's sound, it just so happens our time/sound is loud. it'll fix itself in the end.....i'm just so burnt out on EVERYONE her bitchin' about it, yet i hear no changes.

end drunken rant, flame on....

[edit] haha i repeated myself a few times there!

[gainreduction]

The customer doesn't want it.

Many teenagers interviewed in recent market research say that they can't listen to new music for long. "It hurts my ears" they say. Try listening to a new release loud on an iPod with the small crappy in-ears and you see what they mean.

I'm not saying records should be super quiet but if we could just let those last 1-2 dB's breathe and we're better off. I think 10 years ago was good regarding levels. Loud but not raped.

[subatomicpieces]

yeah... conformism rules, dude!

it is how it is and there's nothing we can do about it.

[Unclenny]

Hey......I listen to a lot of stuff on the MP3 forum.
It sounds like a lot of folks are buying in to getting loud.

So...I'm thinkin' that OP's right. It will come back around.

[Reptil]

Originally Posted by gainreduction

The customer doesn't want it.

Many teenagers interviewed in recent market research say that they can't listen to new music for long. "It hurts my ears" they say. Try listening to a new release loud on an iPod with the small crappy in-ears and you see what they mean.

I'm not saying records should be super quiet but if we could just let those last 1-2 dB's breathe and we're better off. I think 10 years ago was good regarding levels. Loud but not raped.

agree. there's a physical factor. too loud is painful and irritating. even if it's the hype. however, many are so detached from anything quality they don't know better.
it's really top-down, this loudness war.

[heathen]

When I bought the new U2 album and all you can hear is this fuzzy distorted clipping shit all over it you know times are f****ed up! Yeah maybe Metalica could possibly sound ok with shit like that goin on but U2 doing it, gimmee a break.

Have a listen to "Red Gone Wild", very conservative levels for a new album.

Also -12 rms is'nt that loud, yeah it is loud but not compared with -8 to -6 rms which is where things are now.

I hav'nt bought any new music in ages for fear of wasting my cash on a busted shithouse sounding product. Glad your drunk, only a madman would say that without grog, .

[GuitarRuss]

Agreed - one of the great joys of certain kinds of music is being able to crank the frickin knob on your stereo! ACDC's Back in Black is a great example. It wasn't crushed to oblivion. I kept hearing about these new big name heavy bands and when I heard them I couldn't tolerate that blaring sound, sounded like an icecream truck from hell - only one volume.

[mattssons]

Quote

"The customer doesn't want it.

Many teenagers interviewed in recent market research say that they can't listen to new music for long. "It hurts my ears" they say. Try listening to a new release loud on an iPod with the small crappy in-ears and you see what they mean."

Can only agree, i think loud is good but it takes serious skills getting it, whilst still make it work. Those who don´t get it won´t sell I´m not worried, it will solve itself /Toby

[heathen]

Even alot of the time getting things loud is'nt just the mixing or tracking skills, alot can actually boil down to the arrangement, speed, instruments used and dynamics of the actual track also. Evey track has it's own loudness potential.

Finding that loudest track in an album and using that as a benchmark for the rest of the record will usually result in the rest of the album being pushed too hard. Finding the track with the lowest potential for loudness and using that as a benchmark instead will result in a quieter album though much much better sounding due to the other tracks staying slightly below thier loudest potential, leaving alot of dynamics intact. This is the way I like to approach things.

[masterizer]

I see some artists on the verge making their own DIY "loud" mixes that are total crap. I don't think they are realizing that making their record "louder" without caring what it sounds like is really killing some of the up and coming bands. I would much rather listen to music that has been carefully crafted than rushed economy crap. I mean they are clipping it so that Ted Jensen's masters are quiet, Anyone else noticing this?

[lordward]

Originally Posted by gainreduction

The customer doesn't want it.

Many teenagers interviewed in recent market research say that they can't listen to new music for long. "It hurts my ears" they say. Try listening to a new release loud on an iPod with the small crappy in-ears and you see what they mean.

I'm not saying records should be super quiet but if we could just let those last 1-2 dB's breathe and we're better off. I think 10 years ago was good regarding levels. Loud but not raped.

I think even older music hurts my ears after awhile listening on an Ipod. Loud mastering has nothing to do with that..... though I agree that too loud does create a ear fatigue that can really turn you off.

[psykostx]

Originally Posted by gainreduction

Many teenagers interviewed in recent market research say that they can't listen to new music for long. "It hurts my ears" they say. Try listening to a new release loud on an iPod with the small crappy in-ears and you see what they mean.

I'm not saying records should be super quiet but if we could just let those last 1-2 dB's breathe and we're better off. I think 10 years ago was good regarding levels. Loud but not raped.

I'm not a teenager, but I do listen to music and I agree. I stopped watching any form of television at all for that exact reason...my ears hurt. even at low volumes, the news sounds like thrash metal!

whats wierd is that a good DVD still has dynamic range, I always have to turn it up... I wonder if this is because the production crew actually noticed that the movies hurt your ears after a while and people would want to leave?

I agree. Loud not raped. I liked loud when it was Alice and Chains, Tool, Soundgarden etc, and that stuff isn't even considered loud anymore....even Meshuggah has dynamic range compared to some other bands out there, and really, your grandparents would have you exorcised instead of just telling you to turn it down if they heard you listening to the white noise we listen to today... then again, they used to listen to RF noise that was just as loud in order to hear a voice on the radio lol.

[psykostx]

Originally Posted by masterizer

I see some artists on the verge making their own DIY "loud" mixes that are total crap. I don't think they are realizing that making their record "louder" without caring what it sounds like is really killing some of the up and coming bands. I would much rather listen to music that has been carefully crafted than rushed economy crap. I mean they are clipping it so that Ted Jensen's masters are quiet, Anyone else noticing this?

My buddy can do this type of mastering really really well. Its called Ozone lol. He still sent out his own record to be mastered...because he can hear really really well.

Having said that, if you only have $300 and need to "master" a whole record....

PS: Masterizer ahaha.

[psykostx]

Originally Posted by heathen

Even alot of the time getting things loud is'nt just the mixing or tracking skills <snip>
Finding that loudest track in an album and using that as a benchmark for the rest of the record will usually result in the rest of the album being pushed too hard. Finding the track with the lowest potential for loudness and using that as a benchmark instead will result in a quieter album though much much better sounding due to the other tracks staying slightly below thier loudest potential, leaving alot of dynamics intact. This is the way I like to approach things.

True! I like to use the loudest track as a benchmark of just that, I say "this is the loudest track on the album!" and then go out of my way not to heat any tracks up past it... a lot more gets preserved when you are not preoccupied with being able to bring a everything up just because one song is a bit louder than the rest... I think 90's music is a perfect example of this tasteful kind of balancing between loudness and clarity...Alice in Chains' "Dirt" comes to mind.....or STP's "Purple"... NIN "Pretty Hate Machine" I could almost swear that theres a song or two on "Dirt" that don't even use a limiter other than tape saturation when compared to today's standards...and those albums were criticized for being way too loud by purists in their time! Imagine "head like a hole" sounded too up against a wall...even when I play it back inside my head its quieter than all the new stuff... Now everyone wishes for that 90's sound....that "just enough"

PS: Don't forget Nirvana "In Utero," which was all tape saturation as far as I can tell, and if that's all limiter than its definitely warming the sound a whole lot. Maybe its the "transparent" limiting that is killing masters these days?