Mastering levels

[gainstages]

sounds like you have a good head on you. thanks for admitting your aren't a mastering engineer and asking for help and advice.

do you want to become a mastering engineer, or are you just learning to please your clients?

if you want to learn, i think that's great. read, study, observe, and practice practice practice. I've found that with a little hard work you can get 90% of the sound of a "pro" mastering studio within a reasonable amount of time and with a reasonable amount of gear. Getting that last 10% that takes something from "Great" to "WOW!" is hard - it takes great ears, great talent, great gear.

Now - some very general answers to your questions (i figure you are intelligent enough to know that you can't take this stuff completely literally!)

(1) Most Mastering houses i have worked with request that the peak levels on final mixes are around -3

(2) Depends greatly on the type of rock music, the arrangement, and the performance. I would say that you should try to have at least a 6 db gap between the peak and rms levels (IMO). Listen to this with fresh ears - if it sounds good, it is good. (but it could be GREAT, so work with it). I personally like my music a bit more dynamic, but occassionally I'm called on to squash music down more if the artist demands it and the music can take it.

I'm sure the range of opinions on this will be all over the place and i'm sure at least one person will bash my opinions on this, but oh well...

(3) Opinions vary but most will tell you -0.1 or -0.2 should be your peak level after mastering.

Be sure you are comparing the PRE and POST processed tracks at the same volume level in order to make a fair judgement on your processing.

You may want to take a track that you are mastering and send the final mix out to 1-2 other mastering houses, then listen to them, evaluate them and see what they did differantly than you. If you can't actually get face time with a mastering engineer, this is the next best thing.

Good luck with it.

[jayfrigo]

Hi,

Just a few quick responses to your question while I have a moment...

The peak level for mixes being delivered to mastering can vary pretty widely. Some say stay at -6 (dB FS), others -3. I say just leave some room, even if it's just a couple dB. 6dB is great, but you don't strictly need to be that conservative. Lower than that certainly is not necessary. So, if you land anywhere between -2 and -6, you're doing fine. Don't worry so much about the level that you lose focus on the more important things.

As for mastered level, the -3 dB FS is the way to avoid inter-sample peaks in the worst case scenarios, but in most modern recording situations, it's just not necessary to be that conservative, nor can you usually afford to be with most client demands these days and the unfortunate loudness wars. -.3 dB FS is a pretty reasonable place to be. You don't notice a subjective loudness drop, yet it does prevent the worst voltage overs that create distortion at the output stages of consumer players. Some push it to -.1 or -.2, but you do risk some distortion with certain material on some players.

The typical average level tends to be anywhere from -6 dB FS = 0 VU to -9 dB FS as your 0VU reference. -6 sounds terrible, though many are pushing that far, and a few even push beyond for the chorus. Heck, I wish we didn't even have to push to -9, but at least the music is still recognizable at that point. Most guys are in the -7 to -8 range these days, but that's definitely danger territory, and not for the faint of heart or inexperienced to attempt without ruining the music.

Also, you don't need to worry about peak to average ratio much while mixing. Just make it sound good, and don't limit, clip, or do anything purely for level. Bus compression is fine as that's a creative mix decision, and not a pure level play that induces audible distortion like a limiter or clipping. The gap between peak and average will close in mastering, but it's better if you don't worry too much about closing it during mixing.

Hope this helps a bit, and good fortune to you!

[studio freak]

Many, many thanks for your time an patience.

really helpfull,
precious guidelines!

again, thanks a lot

[lucey]

i've made a page on some of this here

peak to RMS is going to be over 10 for most music. 12 to 15 would not be a horrible thing either. 18-20 anyone? but none of that should be the standard, it's the afterthought. the loudest (punchy) masters i've ever done were very dynamic and well balanced mixes ... easy like buttah.

[nandoanalog]

Originally Posted by lucey

18-20 anyone?

Im a 18-20 guy.

[Unclenny]

[QUOTE=lucey;1157621]i've made a page on some of this hereQUOTE]


Good reading.
Read everything=learn

[RainbowStorm]

Originally Posted by studio freak

Hi,

I have completed my degree in sound about a year ago, now i am starting my carrer as recording engineer and also starting with my own recording studio.
I´ve been getting my first clients and in the end they always ask for a mastered version, ( a very common issue, it seems! ) despite i´m always stating that i´m not a mastering engineer and try to explain what "real mastering" is all about, that i dont have the room and the optimized mastering enviroment...,but they always insist and i have no other solution but trying to become as good as i can in "mastering" ( i prefer to call it finalizing, in my case! ) just to get done some "less serious" work.

i´ve read all the great documentation by mr. Bob Katz and so on...
but i have some basic questions to you pro mastering engineers, hope you can help me a bit.

1) what is the best or the most common peak level to achieve in the mixdown stage? before "sending" the mix to be mastered?

2)what is the recomended relaction between peak and average level at the mixdown stage and at the mastering stage ( rock music )

3)i´m aware that aiming the master to peak at 0dbfs can cause distortion on most of consumer sistems, and i dont want to became part of the "loudness wars" with full cranked L2´s destroing my mixes. some people say it´s better to stay with -3 dbfs ! this is a good aproach? what advices can you give about this Loudness vs good sounding/dynamic masters?

PS: working on DAW´s

many thanks in advance

A good rule of thumb is to use your ears rather than your eyes. When you don't do that you easily lock yourself into a corner. While peak-to-average and peak level do measure some characteristics of the mix, it's what those frequencies contain that is what is important. As long as it doesn't clip you are safe, but do leave a few dB of headroom. It's much more important that you give the mastering engineer a balanced mix than a mix that has the "right" loudness/dynamic ratios. Be aware of the problems with a mix that is too dynamic on the tracks that consume a lot of mix signal. Focus on dynamic smoothness and panning and let it just end up where it ends up in terms of peak-to-average. This is totally dependent of the instruments used, the role they play in the context and the way these were played (which depends on the song).

[daveseviltwin]

I'm not a pro by any means but with Pro Tools I have found that if I monitor in pre-fader and use trim instead of the track level and pay attention to what my track is doing in pre mode my mixes come out much better. I Record at everything at a good gain and I stay away from master tracks because it just adds to many variables and protools can get really wierd when you add too many variables. Anyway, this has saved me so much time and effort and when I put it in the limiter to give it a boost for the client it sounds really good for what they want.
I always tell them the same thing you do. "I'm not a mastering engineer and if you want it mastered, send it to a mastering house but I'll get it up to a competitive level for you". I hate it, damned digital plug ins.

[lucey]

Originally Posted by nandoanalog

Im a 18-20 guy.

'Thriller' or killer ... you decide

[Kees de Visser]

please ignore.