Maximum loudness

[mad_hatter]

Any tips on how to achieve maximum loudness in a mix...It's not an EQ thing or levels...I want to know how to achieve a mix that SOUNDS the loudest that it possibly can.... not according to my VU meter but according to my ears...

[Kiwiburger]

Rolloff everything below 500Hz and everything above 10 kHZ. Smash it with a limiter, followed by a saturation plugin, and then smash it again with a multiband compressor.

You did say LOUD - not good, didn't you ...

[MASSIVE Master]

I didn't think this would come in handy again so soon...

[jayfrigo]

Originally Posted by mad_hatter

Any tips on how to achieve maximum loudness in a mix...It's not an EQ thing or levels...I want to know how to achieve a mix that SOUNDS the loudest that it possibly can.... not according to my VU meter but according to my ears...

There are many factors that all come together to make a great mix that sounds big and punchy. No doubt compression comes into play, but not all on the mix bus. Skillfull compression at the track level is a big part. In addition to that, it comes from good balances between instruments, appropriate rides on individual tracks and not thinking that slamming it with compression will remove the need to move the faders during the mix.

It's also a good spectral balance on each track and on the mix as a whole. If you have lots of things bunching up in the low mid-range, just cutting that in mastering or with mix bus EQ is no substitute for getting it right at the tracks in the first palce to prevent such an overall buildup. Give each track it's own space, panning can come into play as well, and don't fill it up with too much stuff playing all at once (instruments or FX). The last, and perhaps most important thing, is the song and its arrangement. If you start with a cluttered and ill-conceived arrangement for a poor song, all the mix tricks in the world can't save you. Seriously - a good arrangement can make all the difference, and quality recorded tracks too. Again, mix tricks don't create good sounding instruments, played and recorded well.

[Darius van H]

Originally Posted by mad_hatter

Any tips on how to achieve maximum loudness in a mix...It's not an EQ thing or levels...I want to know how to achieve a mix that SOUNDS the loudest that it possibly can.... not according to my VU meter but according to my ears...

Try a 0dBFS square wave

[yareck]

Originally Posted by mad_hatter

Any tips on how to achieve maximum loudness in a mix...It's not an EQ thing or levels...I want to know how to achieve a mix that SOUNDS the loudest that it possibly can.... not according to my VU meter but according to my ears...

Search in the hundreds of such posts on this board...

[mad_hatter]

Thanks jay for the elaborate reply....But when I say my mix isn't loud I don't think it is that bad....I'm always referencing tonally with CD's....To be more specific, I am doing some advertising work and the overall VU meters have to be monitored to obey National standards....How to make it sound as loud as I can (and in your face) while still keeping standards....

The suggestions that run through my head are: Do I have to get anal about rolling off any frequencies I don't need of an instrument before I compress? I've known engineers that limit every track to get the maximum loudness and than adjust volume balance accordingly...Is that necassary?

How should I approach compression and limiting on the mix bus before I put my ceiling on....multiband Hammerage than a gentle fast release compressor than a peak limiter??

I know it will vary for each style of song but on the overall....

[MattGray]

Originally Posted by mad_hatter

Any tips on how to achieve maximum loudness in a mix...It's not an EQ thing or levels...I want to know how to achieve a mix that SOUNDS the loudest that it possibly can.... not according to my VU meter but according to my ears...

Pay Chris Lord Alge $10,000 a song to do the mixes for you & then pay Ted Jensen $540 an hour to master it... problem solved

[emgbiotch]

you say you are doing music for advertising right?...i'm assuming that means TV or Radio etc...DO NOT EVEN BOTHER USING A LIMITER at this stage...When your mix goes to post production, it will get smashed through a limiter...Especially on TV and Radio...I have delivered many mixes with little to no compression or limiting...Believe me, when you finally do hear them on TV or Radio, they will be LOUD...Just make your mix sound good...If you must use a limiter, only use it to catch peaks with very little gain reduction...

[Ecktronic]

Originally Posted by mad_hatter

Any tips on how to achieve maximum loudness in a mix...It's not an EQ thing or levels...I want to know how to achieve a mix that SOUNDS the loudest that it possibly can.... not according to my VU meter but according to my ears...

Human ears are most sensitive at 5K and are pretty darn sensitive around the mid range mostly. If you can have a good amount of mid range in your mixes around 1-3K that will make your mixes sound louder, and also if your mixes are very clean around the low mids. 200-500Hz, and also your low end is tight and controlled then your mixes will sound louder. Use a frequency analysier on a commercial mix you like the sound of that sounds louder than one of your mixes, even though both are at the same RMS average. Look at what frequencies are boosted more than in your mix and that should give you an idea on what to do in your mixes to get the EQ right.

Eck

[Ecktronic]

Originally Posted by MattGray

Pay Chris Lord Alge $10,000 a song to do the mixes for you & then pay Ted Jensen $540 an hour to master it... problem solved

$540 an hour? Pricey! A little over the top?
I thought our mastering engineer was pricy at £100 per hour (roughly $200 an hour). He mastered the "Mad World" cover by Gary Jules.

Eck

[Bob Yordan]

Originally Posted by Ecktronic

Human ears are most sensitive at 5K and are pretty darn sensitive around the mid range mostly. If you can have a good amount of mid range in your mixes around 1-3K that will make your mixes sound louder, and also if your mixes are very clean around the low mids. 200-500Hz, and also your low end is tight and controlled then your mixes will sound louder. Use a frequency analysier on a commercial mix you like the sound of that sounds louder than one of your mixes, even though both are at the same RMS average. Look at what frequencies are boosted more than in your mix and that should give you an idea on what to do in your mixes to get the EQ right.

Eck

It is a bit more complex than that, I am afraid to say. The sound used might not
be possible to boost in the same way as the commercial mix analysed frequency spectra.

Also the arrangement, the way the mix has been done, the balance/levels between instruments might be different compared to the commercial mix, gear/plugs used must be included in the calculation.

And most of all the experience & ears & approach of the person doing the job.

[aivoryuk]

Originally Posted by Ecktronic

$540 an hour? Pricey! A little over the top?
Eck

not really, its just business economics supply and demand

and similar to the vlado meller thread, i doubt Ted Jensen actually gets paid that, its prob sterling that gets paid that amount.

and it doesn't matter how much you pay as long as you're happy with the results

[mizzle]

"It is a bit more complex than that, I am afraid to say. The sound used might not
be possible to boost in the same way as the commercial mix analysed frequency spectra."
This is very true. How the drums are tuned, what key the song is in, what range the instruments are playing in etc. will affect the frequency content you have available to manipulate.

[Ecktronic]

Originally Posted by mizzle

"It is a bit more complex than that, I am afraid to say. The sound used might not
be possible to boost in the same way as the commercial mix analysed frequency spectra."
This is very true. How the drums are tuned, what key the song is in, what range the instruments are playing in etc. will affect the frequency content you have available to manipulate.

Very true, but I didnt mean to just copy the frequency spectrum of a comercial mix. I meant it as just a guide. Of course every mix needs a different approach at mixing and mastering stage.

Eck

[AUdioicon]

Originally Posted by mad_hatter

Any tips on how to achieve maximum loudness in a mix...It's not an EQ thing or levels...I want to know how to achieve a mix that SOUNDS the loudest that it possibly can.... not according to my VU meter but according to my ears...

Maybe you are loosing your hearing, because everything is already too loud!
See your audiologist!

AI

[DWINC]

Originally Posted by jayfrigo

There are many factors that all come together to make a great mix that sounds big and punchy. No doubt compression comes into play, but not all on the mix bus. Skillfull compression at the track level is a big part. In addition to that, it comes from good balances between instruments, appropriate rides on individual tracks and not thinking that slamming it with compression will remove the need to move the faders during the mix.

It's also a good spectral balance on each track and on the mix as a whole. If you have lots of things bunching up in the low mid-range, just cutting that in mastering or with mix bus EQ is no substitute for getting it right at the tracks in the first palce to prevent such an overall buildup. Give each track it's own space, panning can come into play as well, and don't fill it up with too much stuff playing all at once (instruments or FX). The last, and perhaps most important thing, is the song and its arrangement. If you start with a cluttered and ill-conceived arrangement for a poor song, all the mix tricks in the world can't save you. Seriously - a good arrangement can make all the difference, and quality recorded tracks too. Again, mix tricks don't create good sounding instruments, played and recorded well.

Looked at your website, props! Also doing online mastering? (for all kinds of music like rock, extreme loud metal and hip Hop?)

[DWINC]

Originally Posted by Darius van H

Try a 0dBFS square wave

I would listen to Darius...he knows best...
(keertje met Huub bij je langs geweest tijdje geleden Darius

[lucey]

Maximum loudness is in the mix, and the arrangement dictates the possibilities.

A clean, well recorded three guitar band like Green Day is one thing, an ambient record poorly recorded is another.

[jayfrigo]

Originally Posted by DWINC

Looked at your website, props! Also doing online mastering? (for all kinds of music like rock, extreme loud metal and hip Hop?)

Thanks for the kind words. We do offer online mastering services, as I think many facilities do these days. Both hip hop and metal are regularly seen here, along with many other styles.

Following are some general "online mastering" thoughts, as I don't want this to turn into simply a promo post.

A number of facilites advertise "online mastering" and have a special web page with some link buttons or something, but you really don't need the marketing front-end to be offering online services. It doesn't matter whether we get the tracks in the mail on a CD-ROM, or from a web server via ftp. The work is the same. Mastering engineers are still available by email, sometimes by filling out a response form directly on the website (like on our contact page), or by phone to discuss a project and to get client feedback to an in-progress job. Making the finished master available for download is easy.

If both parties are minimally familiar with internet and ftp, there really is no need for a fancy, custom web portal like they have at Sterling. Sure, it's pretty cool, and a few extra people without ftp software may be served by the sleek interface, but it's not strictly necessary to be considered "online mastering." However, it is helpful to track the high volume of work with multiple engineers at a big place like Sterling, and good for security with major label projects that some may want to intercept.

It's hard to image that there are too many full-time professional mastering houses out there that still can't service clients online in some way. So on one hand, yes, we certainly offer that service, but on the other hand, it really isn't such a big deal in my opinion. It should be a standard professional service in the modern world.