Vlado Meller rocks.....

[UnderTow]

Originally Posted by Lindell

What you fail to realize is that this is a commercial rock band. The CD will be played together with Metallica, Slayer, Red Hot C, etc. So the levels has to be loud or the fans will complain.

Do you really think so? I have a hard time believing that this is really true. Was this the reason to go for this loudness level?

Alistair

[matucha]

Originally Posted by UnderTow

Do you really think so? I have a hard time believing that this is really true. Was this the reason to go for this loudness level?

Alistair

I'm pretty sure and I don't think there are even 1% of the fans that would prefer less loud nonclipped version. I'm talking about this kind of music (just to clarify).

[scraggs]

what is the name of the band?

[phild]

Originally Posted by Lindell

I have no idea what gear he used, if that's what you're wondering? I liked the result right away so there where no changes to the mastering. We stayed in touch by email.

Cool. Thanks anyway.
Vlado's gear has changed a few times since I've been aware of him... and it still sounds like the same guy to me. I'm more interested how he (and other engineers) use their gear. His gear doesn't look very out-of-the-ordinary but the results are distinct, i think?
Folks tend to be very polarized towards his work. So infamous he doesn't even need his last name anymore.

[e-cue]

Originally Posted by djui5

This would be fun. I'd love to see a mastering "shootout". I'll vote fair, I promise.

I thought this already happened here. I think the subjective "loser" is quite apparent here.
Don't make me post the animated gif...tutt

[scraggs]

post it!

[joeaudio]

Originally Posted by scraggs

vlado apparently gets paid $495 an hour. do any of you really think he cares about some guy offering up a different take on a master on a messageboard? if it were me i would just laugh about it, in between lighting cigars with 100 dollar bills.

i assure you i'm no fan of lucey's, having witnessed him act like a complete jerk on dozens and dozens of occasions, but i really didn't feel like he was that outta line in this case, and i'm surprised by the severity of the responses here.

just a quiet lurkers 2 cents. carry on.

Vlado doesn't get paid $495 an hour, Sony Music Studios does.

Joe

[arf]

Originally Posted by joeaudio

Vlado doesn't get paid $495 an hour, Sony Music Studios does.

Joe

If VM was all that good, he could charge $500/hr.

But hey, that $5/hr can make all the difference when you're a superstar working within a budget.

[chrisj]

I'm just happy Vlado can cut stuff many db below 'Californication'. It's true, the track we were shown was NOT ridiculously slammed by modern standards. I did also think it sounded good. I also think I've had my balls busted by difficult competition enough that I can make a master sound good too- ESPECIALLY if there's a reference which the artist is pointing to, saying 'this sounds AWESOME!'.

I'm still saying 'hey give me a chance, I can do that' even if it seems very tough to do 100%. I didn't post a whoring-for-business example (no point when not invited, no point off an mp3). If I did, under these circumstances, you can bet that I'd start by imitating Vlado and only then tweak things slightly more to my taste...

Perhaps we all do some of that. There's nothing like having a target to aim for- assuming your chain can keep up. My chain's pretty reshapeable so it's down to what I want to do with it really.

If you asked 'would you have done what Vlado did if it was up to you and you had no direction'... ah, THAT'S the catch. When I can claim that I'll be ready to jack up the old rates, right? in fairness, I'm trying to pick up those instincts as quick as I can.

[djui5]

Originally Posted by e-cue

I thought this already happened here. I think the subjective "loser" is quite apparent here.
Don't make me post the animated gif...tutt

What better than to see it twice?

[dave-G]

Originally Posted by phild

Folks tend to be very polarized towards his work. So infamous he doesn't even need his last name anymore.

Yes, but I think he prefers "Mr. The Impaler", and that you don't make direct eye contact.

(wink)

-dave

[scraggs]

Originally Posted by joeaudio

Vlado doesn't get paid $495 an hour, Sony Music Studios does.

you're right. that was what mark wilder was saying as well. my bad. i'm sure vlado has to scrape by on a measly $200-something an hour. my point was simply that i rather doubt a guy in his position in the industry gives a hoot about someone posting a different version of a master on the interwebs. the vast majority here seem to think it was in rather poor taste for lucey to do that, and that's fine, i just think its much ado about nothing, that's all.

[robot gigante]

E-cue, go for it.

Bottom line- if you're wanting to post something you've done that might be construed as spam, don't post it- or at least get permission from the person whose files you're using. I don't want to speak for everyone here, but I don't like it when people use threads like this one as a platform for spamming their services.

It was cool to hear what Vlado did. I'd also be interested in learning about his methodology.

[heathen]

Originally Posted by UnderTow

Do you really think so? I have a hard time believing that this is really true. Was this the reason to go for this loudness level?

Alistair

Who knows where it could be played it could be number 1 within a month or nowhere in 2 years, who knows? That is the thing, you don't want a wimpy master when your a loud rock band, I think this track sounds great for the amount of clipping in the waveform, this is the difference between good and great in an engineer. Being able to keep so much impact at such a level is in itself an achievement, I've heard a lot worse nasty compression on lower RMS level masters.

The reason the master would be at this specific level would be because it's just below a threshold for a diminishing return, any louder and it would sound pretty wrong any quieter would give the impression of a wimpy mix in a guitar driven genre
The song is obviously mastered to it's full potential, it sounds very good. As stated before this track is not as loud as others out there so I don't actually think they were trying to be loud as a creative decision (was it?) it's just where it sat well on Vlado's system, which translates well on my system, which would probably now translate well on nearly any system, which is what mastering is about. If it were mastered to -6 RMS then I'd say it's a wank but it's not, it is a solid record.

Also if someone said to me "Oh our track sounded great in the mastering room at -10 rms but we made the ME take it back 4 db as a really cool wanky creative decision, oh yeah I feel better now". I'd just say WAAAAANKER! This type of situation may become common who knows what the next trendy level will be. I say just take a track to it's full potential, no more no less, no diminishing return. I've mastered some demo's which sound great at -10 with little effort in GReduction (they were great mixes) some struggle to make it to -14 without sounding shithouse. It is the mixing engineer who creates the loudness potential, the masterer takes it there.

[aivoryuk]

Originally Posted by chrisj

I'm just happy Vlado can cut stuff many db below 'Californication'.

wouldn't it of been the band that would of wanted it that loud??

whats more pleasing is the band and liddel like the master at the level that its at. any louder and i think it would maybe of spolit all the good production work

and what is the bands name??

[e-cue]

Originally Posted by robot gigante

E-cue, go for it.

Bottom line- if you're wanting to post something you've done that might be construed as spam, don't post it- or at least get permission from the person whose files you're using. I don't want to speak for everyone here, but I don't like it when people use threads like this one as a platform for spamming their services.

It was cool to hear what Vlado did. I'd also be interested in learning about his methodology.

Heh... I guess you missed the gif when I 1st posted it on one of the god forsaken $300 cable threads (which was apperently lost during a GS crash). It wasn't spam, and I hardly want or need to advertise my services here.

[dtrumfio]

As for Vlado's method's....FWIW I attended a session with him a few years back and it seemed his big weapon was a early 80's 16bit Neve mastering console with built in dsp he uses last in his chain to gain the track up. I think it was just a digital volume knob! It was loud and a little smeared on the top but it worked great for the music.

[elmono]

He doesn't have that Neve console anymore, it ended up down here in Miami.

C.

[robot gigante]

Originally Posted by e-cue

Heh... I guess you missed the gif when I 1st posted it on one of the god forsaken $300 cable threads (which was apperently lost during a GS crash). It wasn't spam, and I hardly want or need to advertise my services here.

No no, it wasn't you I was talking about!!

Sorry for the misunderstanding. I meant you should post the gif. And separately from that, people shouldn't spam as they have done in this thread.

[dcollins]

Originally Posted by elmono

He doesn't have that Neve console anymore, it ended up down here in Miami.

What boat is it tied to?

DC

[studjo]

Originally Posted by dcollins

What boat is it tied to?

DC

Jo

[MattGray]

Originally Posted by heathen

Who knows where it could be played it could be number 1 within a month or nowhere in 2 years, who knows? That is the thing, you don't want a wimpy master when your a loud rock band, I think this track sounds great for the amount of clipping in the waveform, this is the difference between good and great in an engineer. Being able to keep so much impact at such a level is in itself an achievement, I've heard a lot worse nasty compression on lower RMS level masters.

The reason the master would be at this specific level would be because it's just below a threshold for a diminishing return, any louder and it would sound pretty wrong any quieter would give the impression of a wimpy mix in a guitar driven genre
The song is obviously mastered to it's full potential, it sounds very good. As stated before this track is not as loud as others out there so I don't actually think they were trying to be loud as a creative decision (was it?) it's just where it sat well on Vlado's system, which translates well on my system, which would probably now translate well on nearly any system, which is what mastering is about. If it were mastered to -6 RMS then I'd say it's a wank but it's not, it is a solid record.

Also if someone said to me "Oh our track sounded great in the mastering room at -10 rms but we made the ME take it back 4 db as a really cool wanky creative decision, oh yeah I feel better now". I'd just say WAAAAANKER! This type of situation may become common who knows what the next trendy level will be. I say just take a track to it's full potential, no more no less, no diminishing return. I've mastered some demo's which sound great at -10 with little effort in GReduction (they were great mixes) some struggle to make it to -14 without sounding shithouse. It is the mixing engineer who creates the loudness potential, the masterer takes it there.

Great post... This is how I look at the level situation too. The mix determines the finished mastered level as far as I'm concerned. If the mix sucks then you aren't going to get it anywhere near commercial levels before it falls apart & sounds whimpy. If the mix is crafted well & made to sound good with level in mind, it can be very easy to to take it there without it sounding bad.

With this particular mix, Vlado took it as far as the mix would allow before it had diminishing returns on quality. This shows to me that he is taking some care & not just taking every job to a preset "ridiculous" level just for the hell of it. Instead, like a lot of us, he is taking it as far as the mix will allow before it falls apart.

He also managed to make the drums punchier then the mix while still achieving the highest level this mix allows. This is where experience comes into play & this has also been my goal when mastering commercial tracks. For me it's about getting the master to have more impact at commercial levels than the original mix, even when the 2 are level matched. It's not an easy thing to do & it's why guys like Vlado & Ted Jensen get paid the BIG bucks to do it (because they do it extremely well). Most of it comes from years of living & breathing music & knowing how to treat each style in order to bring out the best in the artist's or producer's intent. The level part is knowing exactly how far to push it before the laws of physics dictate diminishing returns in quality.

If everyone could do it just as well as the BIG names, then everyone would use the cheaper mastering houses. But this just simply isn't the case...

Matt

[ISedlacek]

Originally Posted by Tubefreak

Maybe we should start just a new thread with songs various people can master and then take a closer look at what was done and how it sounds. SoundOnSound magazine did an interesting article with blind test audio samples on this topic a few months back.

Personally.... I was very interested to hear what other people did with the mix. I don't see it as devalueing Vlado or as selfpromotion. I actually value it as educational. REALLY !

For example: I like Bobs book, but would love to have an additional sampler CD. Sometimes audio speaks so much more then words or visuals.

It would be far more interesting to discuss the differences between the various mastering versions. One thing I remember from the whole SoundOnSound article was that no-one ever mentioned a difference in m/s balance between the various versions. Which was too bad.

Maarten

I am absolutely for it ... Nothing could be more interesting and educative than that. Of course, it is much easier to talk a lot than to bring a real thing to a public display ... so I understand that some people could be a bit reluctant to do this.

[heathen]

Originally Posted by ISedlacek

I am absolutely for it ... Nothing could be more interesting and educative than that. Of course, it is much easier to talk a lot than to bring a real thing to a public display ... so I understand that some people could be a bit reluctant to do this.

I think it could be great, I'm always keen to learn more, no winners or losers just some different techniques and different ideas would be great to share.

[heathen]

Originally Posted by MattGray

Great post... This is how I look at the level situation too. The mix determines the finished mastered level as far as I'm concerned. If the mix sucks then you aren't going to get it anywhere near commercial levels before it falls apart & sounds whimpy. If the mix is crafted well & made to sound good with level in mind, it can be very easy to to take it there without it sounding bad.



Matt

Totally, also as well usually these are the best arrangements too. Sometimes everything just works and there is no problem going just a tad further. Usually if I find myself pushing things too loud I know it's time for a cuppa tea and a 20 minute break and then come back have a listen and edge things back a bit.

I did a demo master for a rap CD a few weeks back and the vox were way to harsh on the highest peaks which were robbing him of a potentially loud and also better master(not meaning louder as better), so I advised him to do a day remixing just the vox gain staging (his plugins were clipping) and after he finished it was way better and very easy to push a fair bit louder without being harsh at all. The whole lot of songs were perfect at around -12 to -11 RMS.

[elmono]

Originally Posted by dcollins

What boat is it tied to?
DC

Somewhere in North Miami Beach... And i hear the guy using it is kicking ass and taking names.

[scraggs]

*sighs*

[phild]

Originally Posted by dtrumfio

his big weapon was a early 80's 16bit Neve mastering console with built in dsp he uses last in his chain to gain the track up. I think it was just a digital volume knob! It was loud and a little smeared on the top but it worked great for the music.

This is the DTC that was co-designed by Graham Boswell and the Prism Sound team.
I have a manual for one around here somewhere - as Lacquer Channel where close to buying one at some point.

The competitors where the Sony SDP-1000 (which we still have) and the Weiss BW102 (which we still have in the way of SRC's and a few other cards)

I've only ever seen 2 DTC's up close - Vlado's and George Marino's.

[lucey]

Originally Posted by Tubefreak

Maybe we should start just a new thread with songs various people can master and then take a closer look at what was done and how it sounds. SoundOnSound magazine did an interesting article with blind test audio samples on this topic a few months back.

Personally.... I was very interested to hear what other people did with the mix. I don't see it as devalueing Vlado or as selfpromotion. I actually value it as educational. REALLY !

Maarten

Right on Marteen, you have a music lovers mentality and a strong sense of self. You are not identified with your work, it's just work, to share and compare and improve. A very healthy approach. Then there are the power lovers, clique heads, and other politicos that are identified with their work and the social pyramid of credibility, and thus promote the same. Self-promotion? Yes it is.

Originally Posted by Masterer

BTW. I believe there is a seperate sub-forum for shameless self promotion, etc. Why don't we keep it there so the rest of the forum can have some class and professionalism.

Coming from your pious examples in the past those words cut, um ... dull? It's amazing how morally righteous some folks get when anything challenges their norms of conduct. And to agree with your excellent point ... why are you not asking Lindell to post these song files elsewhere in the first place? By your own standards this thread was self-congratulations and self-promotion from the get go. "Look at my mix and master by VM for $495/hr." Suddenly I'm at fault? Interesting. You defend your clique, and thus miss your hypocrisy.

Folks I'd be happy to be seen as 'competing' with anyone at any time .... but I'd appreciate the same mix file to work from before you get out your robes and gavels



As for the idea of "spam" Robot, you have a narrow and vindictive defintion at work here. We could all easily call 'spam' on the advice and opinions made in many other threads by each of the more venomous posters in this thread, yet I accept that some element of self-promotion and clique promotion is par for the course on the forums. My Mic is best, my Pre Amp best. I like my ME best. I defend my friend the ME because he's in my clique and that's good for us all. I dont bother with negative emotions/police work when these posts come up, and they are everywhere. Some people are more subtle about self-promotion, but it's all the same thing, and it's totally fine with me. It could also be seen as enthusiam, friendship, sharing, taste, or a host of other things. There are many ways to look at it thaty dont require definitive assumptions and personal bashing.

[punisher]

Originally Posted by lucey

Folks I'd be happy to be seen as 'competing' with anyone at any time .... but I'd appreciate the same mix file to work from before you get out your robes and gavels

It isn't your right to ask for anything here. Lindell wasn't asking for submissions. Your actions stink of desperation.

Bottom line is you still couldn't even come close to Vlado's let alone better it.

Accept it. You are and will never be anything more than some dude from one of the flyover states with a bad attitude.

As much "notoriety" as you try to weave around yourself, despite this, you achieve nothing other than to position yourself as a failure.

You are the Wil E. Coyote of this place. You keep getting hammered and just doesn't know when to quit and get played like a fiddle.

You can't throw money at this issue of yours. If anything you're probably gonna hurt the sales of Elysia compressors.