Vlado Meller rocks.....

[Brad Blackwood]

Originally Posted by lucey

Preference is subjective Brad

So is 'value'.

[chrissugar]

Originally Posted by ISedlacek

Ouch ... It´s almost hurting ... Was it meant seriously or just as a (bad) joke ?

I also thought it was a joke. The mix sounds good and has the resources to sound good after mastering, but this master sounds like hell.
What is sad is the fact that the big name mastering engineers congratulate for this unlistenable master. This perfectly explains the state of the things related to the loudness war. I would punish then to listen eight hours per day, for a year to distorted limited music with -6RMS. Maybe after that experience they would do something against this madness.
And please don't come with things like, "it is a question of taste". It is about bad taste.

Originally Posted by djui5

Not really, as there is an insanely huge difference in the quality between the masters posted on this thread. It's far from a difference in volume, so much more than that. If you can't hear the difference then I'm sorry for you.

Are you serious? At this level of limiting and distortion you can talk about huge difference?

chrissugar

[djui5]

Originally Posted by lucey

Preference is subjective Brad

But not quality...

Not trying to bust your balls either, but if you want to have a real and fair shootout, get in on it yourself, invite everyone else ... and I'm game.

This would be fun. I'd love to see a mastering "shootout". I'll vote fair, I promise.

Only to get close using an mp3 source - which I did - insults from the petty not withstanding.

Whatever helps you sleep at night.

Last post..promise

[djui5]

Originally Posted by chrissugar

Are you serious? At this level of limiting and distortion you can talk about huge difference?

chrissugar

Yes. I can hear a huge difference between them.

[Cellotron]

One piece of perspective I should point out is that Lindell's facility actually has an excellent in-house mastering studio of its own - http://www.bohussound.com/mastering.html - so that those few saying that Lindell was "self promoting" with this thread seems unfounded to me - it seems more that he was showing what a "top tier" ME who probably has more experience than any 10 posters here combined can do for a track.

Anyway - seems Vlado's name comes up a lot on mastering forum threads regarding the loudness war as a major infringer - and frankly I don't understand at all why the Rick Rubin produced Johnny Cash records were so crushed as they were - but I still have clients that bring out things like RHCP's "Californication" as reference discs that they want to match - so I think it's an oversight to not understand that the hyper-limited approach actually appeals to a number of artists themselves and is not just an A&R and ME driven thing. I should also state that Vlado's masters that are hyper limited consistently seem to get to very high average levels with less artifacts then other examples of the same treatment that I've heard.

However I've heard a number of masters of Vlado's that weren't hyperlimited. While at Europadisk I cut the DMM's for the David Morales/Lea-Lorien - "How Would U Feel" 12" off a pre-master done by Vlado and while it had good average level it also had some nice dynamic flow to it with plenty of thump and just needed minimal tweaking for it to translate well to vinyl.

So while Mr. Meller isn't necessarily my favorite ME I think he does quality work and that he certainly has a long track record of making his clients happy - which sometimes in this day indeed does involve clipping the crap out of the music. While I agree that this treatment of hyperlimiting is detrimental to the longevity of the "timelessness" of the music (similar to all that massive gated digital verb on all those 80's drum tracks) - and also detrimental to my own personal enjoyment of the music! - it should be acknowledged that as long as it is requested by the client that it is the ME's job to do this in a manner as least damaging as possible to the integrity of the track.

Best regards,
Steve Berson

[chrissugar]

Originally Posted by djui5

Yes. I can hear a huge difference between them.

That is good. For me they al sound like s*it.

Another great example is Staind, album Chapter V, song Right here, mastered by another big name. The soft parts sound great but the loud parts sound like s*it.

chrissugar

[aivoryuk]

Originally Posted by chrissugar

Are you serious? At this level of limiting and distortion you can talk about huge difference?

chrissugar

well the differnce is quite obv, one has been processed using the PCM file and the others have been processed from mp3's. it was always going to be a losing battle.

was the mastering session attended?? or was Vlado left to do his stuff???
its a great track

[chrissugar]

Originally Posted by aivoryuk

well the differnce is quite obv, one has been processed using the PCM file and the others have been processed from mp3's. it was always going to be a losing battle.

My point was that starting from a certain point it doesn't matter. It is bad. It is like chosing between two very bad things the one that is better.

chrissugar

[Lindell]

I'll try to reply to some posts when I'll get a chance to get out of the control room (hopefully tomorrow)

Cheers,

[brendondp]

Originally Posted by djui5

This would be fun. I'd love to see a mastering "shootout". I'll vote fair, I promise.

But what would be the point?

If I'm a client who has a preference in terms of the type of results I want from a mastering engineer, then I'm gonna pay whatever it takes to have that mastering engineer give me the results I want.

Chances are those results may be wildly different from what you prefer, but you're (and not you, personally, Randy) not the client, so what does it matter what anyone else thinks after the fact?

If I post my mix, and then put up the files as mastered by... let's say, John Loder (R.I.P.), and I say I'm happy, then... kinda "case closed".

The fact that Vlado, Chris, Brian, Brad and Jesus himself could also master it (for less or more per hour) is kinda redundant.

We're all aware that many talented ME's visit this forum. But why we choose to pay them money to master our records is partly due to sonics, partly to do with money, but often, down to relationship.

A "mastering shootout" will only create the same type of shit storm we got last time there was a "mix off". And can someone tell me what the fuk that proved?

I'd be extremely surprised if the "mix off" got anyone any more clients because they posted their wares on an internet forum.

If it was me, I'd get Jesus to master all my records. I hear he's willing to crucify himself in order to make the client happy.

Cheers,

bdp

[dave-G]

Originally Posted by lucey

Preference is subjective Brad ... how many times have you said that. There is no "better", except to the client ... who likes what he bought. And we dont need to vote on it, but for the record I don't like Vlados version or mine as it's hashy from mp3. I did it fast and aimed to match his direction (hindering the freedom of my process) to make your exact point and my point that the mix is king.

Not trying to bust your balls either, but if you want to have a real and fair shootout, get in on it yourself, invite everyone else ... and I'm game. If we all had the mix file and not the mp3, and if it was blind vote with a number of non lucey-haters in the voting, we could have a fair and real vote. But again, to what end? The client is already happy.

This is no scientific study, and I NEVER TRIED TO BETTER IT. Only to get close using an mp3 source - which I did - insults from the petty not withstanding.

Bottom line, 9X% of the public would not know any difference and 100% would like or not like this music, buy or not buy this music, based on these masters. The music and mix is the thing ... that's the point.

Brian,

I certainly don't consider myself a card-carrying lucey-hater, I've got no personal reason for anything like that. However, I do wonder if you ever wonder why so many of your efforts on the internet end up in a similar quagmire. Occam's razor would favor what you see in your mirror.

In this case, yours is a convenient argument to offer when the comparison doesn't favor you. "I did it fast", "never tried to better it" and "9X% of the public would not know any difference" are probably not the kind of things you'd be saying if the balance of opinion was on the other side (whether they're truths or not).

But regardless.. You wouldn't be having this argument at all if not for your assumption that a post like this is an open door for you, or if you said "oops, my bad" and backed off.

I'm going to shaaddap now .. it's none of my business anyway.. but I'd just as soon read a thread about mastering without the devolution that you bring, inspire, or whatever combination you care to describe it with.

Regards
-dave

[robot gigante]

Originally Posted by brendondp

But what would be the point?

If I'm a client who has a preference in terms of the type of results I want from a mastering engineer, then I'm gonna pay whatever it takes to have that mastering engineer give me the results I want.

Chances are those results may be wildly different from what you prefer, but you're (and not you, personally, Randy) not the client, so what does it matter what anyone else thinks after the fact?

If I post my mix, and then put up the files as mastered by... let's say, John Loder (R.I.P.), and I say I'm happy, then... kinda "case closed".

The fact that Vlado, Chris, Brian, Brad and Jesus himself could also master it (for less or more per hour) is kinda redundant.

We're all aware that many talented ME's visit this forum. But why we choose to pay them money to master our records is partly due to sonics, partly to do with money, but often, down to relationship.

A "mastering shootout" will only create the same type of shit storm we got last time there was a "mix off". And can someone tell me what the fuk that proved?

I'd be extremely surprised if the "mix off" got anyone any more clients because they posted their wares on an internet forum.

If it was me, I'd get Jesus to master all my records. I hear he's willing to crucify himself in order to make the client happy.

Cheers,

bdp

I agree.

Jesus is a real miracle worker when it comes to the low end

[djui5]

Originally Posted by brendondp

But what would be the point?
Cheers,

bdp

Well I should have said "not using the files from this thread" as I didn't mean a shootout with this song. We had a lot of fun with the mix shootout, and I think a mastering one would be just as fun

[punisher]

Originally Posted by lucey

Not trying to bust your balls either, but if you want to have a real and fair shootout, get in on it yourself, invite everyone else ... and I'm game.

To have a fair and real shootout you don't get to check out your competitor's work. At least that's my undertanding.

What would I know anyway? I'm just a part-time furniture salesman who has an interest in this stuff.

Funny thought that despite you having the benefit of your opponent's work (mp3 or not) you STILL couldn't top it.

It's like having the answers prior to an exam and still failing.

[MarkWilder]

Originally Posted by scraggs

vlado apparently gets paid $495 an hour. do any of you really think he cares about some guy offering up a different take on a master on a messageboard? if it were me i would just laugh about it, in between lighting cigars with 100 dollar bills.

I take exception here. Vlado doesn't get paid 495/hr, he only charges 495/hr. If he gets paid 495/hr then I gotta talk to someone about a raise. Other than that, you're dead on the money. Except for the smoking thing... Dead on the money.

[phild]

Originally Posted by Lindell

I'll try to reply to some posts when I'll get a chance to get out of the control room (hopefully tomorrow)

Cheers,

Seeing how this is a "vlado rocks" topic maybe I can ask a few questions?
I haven't heard the posted tracks yet but I almost don't feel I have to as I am very familiar with Vlado's signature - loud, bright, aggressive, midrange-y, exciting, often distorted.

Some of his stuff that I like makes me wonder about it, a bit.

Do you have any idea what Vlado did to your track? Did he speak to you about the session once it was done? Does $495 include idle chit chat or is it confidential?

I visited his studio once when he was working on the RHCP's "By The Way" sometime around when the surround Bryston/PMC's where put in. Sounded really impressive. The track just simply ****ing exploded in the studio. I remember laughing actually because it was so impacting.

Has anyone here on the forum sat in with him that can recount anything interesting or different in his approach? (besides Mssrs. Wilder, & Athens who've probably taken an Oath)

Thank you

[scraggs]

Originally Posted by MarkWilder

I take exception here. Vlado doesn't get paid 495/hr, he only charges 495/hr. If he gets paid 495/hr then I gotta talk to someone about a raise. Other than that, you're dead on the money. Except for the smoking thing... Dead on the money.

you're right. lighting cigars with 100s would be awfully ostentatious. 20s it is then.

i hadn't listened to the song before i posted, i was totally prepared to hate the master and get on here and bitch about how horrible it was, but uh yeah, it sounds fine. LOOKS scary, those kicks are awfully clipped, but i've heard far far worse things than that by a mile.

that song though, wow. please tell me it's for an Andrew Lloyd Webber production.

[jayfrigo]

Very cool that we can hear a before and after of the work of a top tier guy like Vlado. Thanks for posting. The thread has contained some good discussion, but it has started to devolve. Let's bring it back from the brink before the padlock needs to make an appearance.

So, is it a good master despite too much level, or because of it? Or is it so far gone it's just not a good master? If you think it sounds great, or the level has nothing to do with it, is the sound so perfect that he could make it this way, and then reduce the level by three dB POST clipping/limiting and still have you think it's great? Thoughts or comments?

[punisher]

Originally Posted by phild

Has anyone here on the forum sat in with him that can recount anything interesting or different in his approach? (besides Mssrs. Wilder, & Athens who've probably taken an Oath)

Thank you

Had the pleasure of meeting Vlado a few years ago and got to see him in action.

What struck me about him was the passion for his craft and most importantly his desire to make sure he delivered what his client wanted.

[scraggs]

Originally Posted by jayfrigo

So, is it a good master despite too much level, or because of it? Or is it so far gone it's just not a good master? If you think it sounds great, or the level has nothing to do with it, is the sound so perfect that he could make it this way, and then reduce the level by three dB POST clipping/limiting and still have you think it's great? Thoughts or comments?

interesting questions.

i was just surprised that he kept at least the appearance of impact on the kick and snare with that much level. it was certainly better on the mix, but like i said above i've heard things destroyed way more than that. i was impressed that he got it that loud without changing the character of the mix too much.

that said i spent two minutes throwing 3 voxengo elephants on the mix and i was surprised to find that didn't sound that bad either.

i should raise my rates.

[ed littman]

Originally Posted by scraggs

interesting questions.

i was just surprised that he kept at least the appearance of impact on the kick and snare with that much level..

I found that by clipping it may have added a bit of the snapp, & usually that sounds better to me at loud levels then using a limiter.
Ed

[djui5]

Why is everyone saying it's so slammed? Look at this...I borrowed it from another forum, hope it's ok. It's Californication by RHCP

[bcgood]

It really is scary to me how accepted it has become to squash the crap out of mixes these days. Like others have already said, if you want it louder turn up that knob that is conveniently labeled volume. For reference listen to Back in Black by AC/DC and then listen to Californication, you tell me which you'd rather listen to. I hope and pray if you consider yourself a mastering engineer, sound engineer etc. you can be honest and not let the professional hang ups and current loudness war issues cloud reality. As a lover of great sounding production and music, please stop the insanity!

bcgood

[punisher]

Originally Posted by bcgood

It really is scary to me how accepted it has become to squash the crap out of mixes these days. Like others have already said, if you want it louder turn up that knob that is conveniently labeled volume. For reference listen to Back in Black by AC/DC and then listen to Californication, you tell me which you'd rather listen to. I hope and pray if you consider yourself a mastering engineer, sound engineer etc. you can be honest and not let the professional hang ups and current loudness war issues cloud reality. As a lover of great sounding production and music, please stop the insanity!

bcgood

Nothing new in what you are saying friend. These days mastering is more a service industry than ever. The genie is out of the bottle. Most rock / pop / dance / mainstream clients want it loud so to not be left behind.


It's a tiresome rant. The challenge now is to make loud records that still sound "good".

So you either step up or look for another career path.

[scraggs]

or just actually make it sound good. and, remarkably, people come back.

[punisher]

Originally Posted by scraggs

or just actually make it sound good. and, remarkably, people come back.

Sure. But in most cases loud comes still comes into it. The way I hear things from my ME friends they share the frustration but they also want to make their clients happy.

It's a double edged sword. It's been thrashed out so many times I'm not gonna bother.

But I take your point.

[stealthbalance]

great work lindell !! sounds great - and i dig what vlad did.

s

[heathen]

I think the Vlado master was way better, to start with Lucey you should know there is no point in trying to make an mp3 sound like a good wave file master converted to mp3, you were wiping your arse before having a crap. Every end user listening experience is subjective and probably slightly different but.......... um did I say the Vlado master was heaps better.

All I can say is well done to the original poster, great mix great song.

[Lindell]

OK,
My intention with the original post was just to show you a pre&post mastering example, where Vlado happened to be the engineer. Not to start a kindergarden shit throwing contest.
I as a customer, is very satisfied with the result and that's what pretty much counts here. Personal preferences is another thing.

Originally Posted by aivoryuk

I thought it was a good production to start with.....
i like it

Thank you!

Originally Posted by AMIEL

I love the song, great guitar and awesome singer!!!Great job Lindell!

Thanks man!

Originally Posted by lucey

The mix and the music are the big accomplishment here. Meller is good but you're giving him too much credit for having a unique sound or talent. And that master is not smashed much by the standard of say, Audioslave.


I know it's a fun treat to pay for famous names, yet for $80 I'd have sent you these (at nearly the same level - to make comparison easy)

from your mp3 - a
from your mp3 - b
from your mp3 - c kick and meat up

To me there's a $415 difference between yours and Vlados master..... Vlado's has better transients, it's 'tighter', more balanced, has a better/nicer top end, more controlled bass, etc. I know you did your thing from my MP3 which isn't fair, but you choosed yourself to post these examples made from an MP3.

If y'all want to do a "mastering competition", I could give y'all a wave file. But that's for another thread and time.

Originally Posted by punisher

Sorry but no balls here by Brian. It's just pure audacity.
You yourself acknowledge that Vlado's version is better.
People are elavated to greatness not dragged up by being shouted at.
I think Brian could have conducted his experiment via different means
When it comes to good and great between Vlado and Brian we're not talking a fine line but the grand canyon.
My behaviour might be questionable here as well but if someone is going to stick his chin out he can expect to get it pulverised.

yupp

Originally Posted by Masterer

Hey, he got what he wanted from the engineer he wanted it from [at a price that he was obviously comfortable paying].

Sounds like it all worked out.

Yes, I'm happy and so is the band.

Originally Posted by Masterer

Lindell, congrats. Glad you like what Vlado did for you.

Thanks

Originally Posted by djui5

Cool song Lindy, nice work buddy.

Thank you.

Originally Posted by djui5

The thread is meant to show off what Vlado did. This isn't a "Hey Lucey, can you master better than this guy for 1/10th the price?" thread.

I think those of you posting your own masters of this are doing so in the wrong. No one asked you to, and I'm sure Dellio didn't give anyone permission to, unless I missed that somewhere.

Unbelievable.

Yeah I agree.......and there where no 'permission' either

Originally Posted by soundroid

Exactly... sharing ideas and debating things.
Two factors clearly void from your original post lucey.

The factors I saw were
1). self promotion
2). undercutting a collegue

....not very "collegial" or cool in my book.

I agree

Originally Posted by Riccardo

I might well be wrong but I have a feeling Tobias posted the file without all the profound thoughts and thinking you all are having here. He just did it to share it with us.

Exactly

Originally Posted by UnderTow

The thing that amazes me is that people prefer having a product at this level of loudness despite the, to my ears, obvious clipping. I think Vlado's version with 3-4 dB less clipping/limiting would be great!

What you fail to realize is that this is a commercial rock band. The CD will be played together with Metallica, Slayer, Red Hot C, etc. So the levels has to be loud or the fans will complain.

Originally Posted by lucey

The money was first mentioned by Lindell, and proudly so. My post followed another poster who had further opened that door. In retrospect, had I not said that (optional) phrase would you be okay with alternate files?


#2 The assumption that someone happily posting a mix and master file should be followed only by a load of ass kissing praises is the fallacy here. If you want to gush with no debate then post in the Good News forum ... the mp3 forum is also available. Were this in Good News I'd have left it alone as it's not right to stop any gushing there, just like it's not right to stop any bitching in the Moan Zone.

It's only you that is 'debating' Lucey.....

Originally Posted by Brad Blackwood

Lucey, Not trying to bust your balls, but it appears that virtually everyone that listened and posted preferred Vlado's version, so you proved nothing. If everyone had liked yours more you would have a point, but in essence you're saying "look, I can make it almost as good for less money"...

yeah.....

Originally Posted by phild

Seeing how this is a "vlado rocks" topic maybe I can ask a few questions?
I haven't heard the posted tracks yet but I almost don't feel I have to as I am very familiar with Vlado's signature - loud, bright, aggressive, midrange-y, exciting, often distorted.

Some of his stuff that I like makes me wonder about it, a bit.

Do you have any idea what Vlado did to your track? Did he speak to you about the session once it was done?

Thank you

I have no idea what gear he used, if that's what you're wondering? I liked the result right away so there where no changes to the mastering. We stayed in touch by email.

Originally Posted by stealthbalance

great work lindell !! sounds great - and i dig what vlad did.

Thanks man!!!

[Tubefreak]

Maybe we should start just a new thread with songs various people can master and then take a closer look at what was done and how it sounds. SoundOnSound magazine did an interesting article with blind test audio samples on this topic a few months back.

Personally.... I was very interested to hear what other people did with the mix. I don't see it as devalueing Vlado or as selfpromotion. I actually value it as educational. REALLY !

For example: I like Bobs book, but would love to have an additional sampler CD. Sometimes audio speaks so much more then words or visuals.

It would be far more interesting to discuss the differences between the various mastering versions. One thing I remember from the whole SoundOnSound article was that no-one ever mentioned a difference in m/s balance between the various versions. Which was too bad.

Maarten