Vlado Meller rocks.....

[djui5]

Originally Posted by lucey

A thread that's talking about how unique a guy is

The thread is meant to show off what Vlado did. This isn't a "Hey Lucey, can you master better than this guy for 1/10th the price?" thread.

I think those of you posting your own masters of this are doing so in the wrong. No one asked you to, and I'm sure Dellio didn't give anyone permission to, unless I missed that somewhere.

Unbelievable.

[lucey]

Originally Posted by soundroid

of course, of course. you're doing this for our education.

This mastering forum used to be about sharing ideas and debating things that relate to mastering in a collegial way, not pulling rank and posturing ... and my idea was this: glad you're happy Lindell, nice work Mr. Meller, yet not as unique of a 'sound' as was suggested, very expensive, and not as big of a factor as the music and mix to the result.

Originally Posted by djui5

The thread is meant to show off what Vlado did.

Lindell went further than showing off his purchase, claiming how unique and valuable the VM "sound" is. I'm all for gushing enthusiasm, but be prepared for a counter view. If he wanted to show off only - the mp3 forum is available. If you posit value and uniqueness, that's an argument.

[djui5]

Originally Posted by lucey

Lindell went further than showing off his purchase, claiming how unique and valuable the VM "sound" is.

Well it is. Neither of the masters you posted or the other user posted come anywhere close to the quality of Vlado's. Still I retain my point that Lindy didn't post these files asking if you could do better or even compete. He was showing off Vlado's work, period.

[soundroid]

Originally Posted by lucey

This mastering forum used to be about sharing ideas and debating things that relate to mastering in a collegial way, not pulling rank and posturing ... and my idea was this: glad you're happy Lindell, nice work Mr. Meller, yet not as unique of a 'sound' as was suggested, very expensive, and not as big of a factor as the music and mix to the result.


Lindell went further than showing off his purchase, claiming how unique and valuable the VM "sound" is. I'm all for gushing enthusiasm, but be prepared for a counter view. If he wanted to show off only - the mp3 forum is available. If you posit value and uniqueness, that's an argument.

Exactly... sharing ideas and debating things.
Two factors clearly void from your original post.

The factors I saw were
1). self promotion
2). undercutting a collegue

....not very "collegial" or cool in my book.

[robot gigante]

Originally Posted by lucey

The mix and the music are the big accomplishment here. Meller is good but you're giving him too much credit for having a unique sound or talent. And that master is not smashed much by the standard of say, Audioslave.


I know it's a fun treat to pay for famous names, yet for $80 I'd have sent you these (at nearly the same level - to make comparison easy)

Pffft. Just **** already.

If you want a good example of why other people are more successful in this business, perhaps consider WHY the sound is only part of the story.

[lucey]

Preference is clearly subjective, and some of you dont like me in the first place so it's not worth arguing over anymore. And "****" is a sign that the children are out to play so I'll stop with this one ....


I simply took the source mix mp3 that was provided and delivered something in 20 minutes that 90 some out of 100 consumers would not prefer any more than the others. (and those few would just be acting cool, or would be engineers proving their ears.) Prefer what you will, but the mix and music are most of the deal.

This thread is ultimately a promotion of both the ME named in the title and the mixer who proudly shared the price he paid to work with same. Posting here and claiming unique value is a claim I simply refute and no one's subjective preference will change that. Some will like my sample and some will like the others, and that's how it goes. If the band is happy, that's all that matters. I'm certainly not one to skimp and dont suggest that anyone should shop by price nor did I intend to devalue the work from Mr Meller or argue superiority.

out

[djui5]

I fail to see how you would even think posting that master of yours is approporiate, regardless of my feelings towards you.

One day I might understand your reasoning, but it's not likely. You are correct about preferences being subjective, or taste as I would call it.

[soundroid]

Originally Posted by djui5

I fail to see how you would even think posting that master of yours is approporiate, regardless of my feelings towards you.

Absolutely 100% correct.

[punisher]

Originally Posted by lucey

nor did I intend to devalue the work from Mr Meller or argue superiority.

out

Could of fooled me.

[punisher]

Originally Posted by lucey

This thread is ultimately a promotion of both the ME named in the title and the mixer who proudly shared the price he paid to work with same.

Yeah and that a 10K compressor does not make a ME.

[arf]

I think what Brian did took both balls and chutzpah, because it is essentially a lose-lose gambit. If his versions were better people would say he used VM's version as a benchmark, and if not, he comes up with egg on his face. However, I found this to be extremely educational and valuable. First, a question. VM started with PCM files but the posted result was mp3. Brian started with the mp3 but posted a wav. Could he ever have gotten a better result, or does it not really matter whether the mp3 conversion loss happens at the beginning or at the end? (Maybe Lindell would post a full-res unmastered wav clip.) All that aside, what I found very interesting is that Brian's masters were very good, but IMO Vlado's was great. It moved air, the bottom was tight and huge, the snare hit you in the chest, and the highs were smooth and clear. It's the difference between good and great that makes careers. It can be a very fine line, but there is definitely a line. I can't really buy the all self-righteous outrage about this. Brian took the risk and put himself out there, that took conviction. His point was that comparable results can be had for a lot less $$, but whether he proved or disproved it remains in the ear of the listener. But you can't knock a guy for trying.

[AMIEL]

interesting perspective!

just we tend sometimes to see more the negative side.

[Brad Blackwood]

Originally Posted by AMIEL

we tend sometimes to see more the negative side.

On occasion, experience leads us there...

[soundroid]

Originally Posted by arf

I think what Brian did took both balls and chutzpah, because it is essentially a lose-lose gambit. If his versions were better people would say he used VM's version as a benchmark, and if not, he comes up with egg on his face. However, I found this to be extremely educational and valuable. First, a question. VM started with PCM files but the posted result was mp3. Brian started with the mp3 but posted a wav. Could he ever have gotten a better result, or does it not really matter whether the mp3 conversion loss happens at the beginning or at the end? (Maybe Lindell would post a full-res unmastered wav clip.) All that aside, what I found very interesting is that Brian's masters were very good, but IMO Vlado's was great. It moved air, the bottom was tight and huge, the snare hit you in the chest, and the highs were smooth and clear. It's the difference between good and great that makes careers. It can be a very fine line, but there is definitely a line. I can't really buy the all self-righteous outrage about this. Brian took the risk and put himself out there, that took conviction. His point was that comparable results can be had for a lot less $$, but whether he proved or disproved it remains in the ear of the listener. But you can't knock a guy for trying.

sorry. I respectfully & totally disagree.
there's the proprer palce and time for everything.
unfortunately, trying to upstage Vlado behind his back
is just unprofessional. He has all rights to be really pissed off.
I just fail to see any positives here.

[soundroid]

oh, and it's just not Brian either.
there were others acting distastefully as well.

[ISedlacek]

Originally Posted by djui5

The thread is meant to show off what Vlado did.

But first of all - isn´t it also a kind of direct promotion ? (once you all bash Brian for posting few samples)

Second - I don´t see anything wrong in posting and discussing various solutions to the same material. On the contrary - this is something which is usually very much missed here and which is much more interestesting, challenging and educative than some endless plain theoretical discussions.

[Lindell]

[robot gigante]

It's not the posting files that is as bothersome as 'look what I can do for x amount of dollars less.'

Any way you look at it, that's distasteful, is an attempt to devalue what Vlado did, and shows little respect for either Lindell or Vlado. It undercuts what is a fair compensation for a job well done into a price war.

Posting a file with Lindell's permission and saying 'this is what I would have done' would have been completely different.

As has been mentioned, Lucey was not the only one behaving like this.

Anyway, congrats Lindell. It sounds good.

[punisher]

Originally Posted by arf

I think what Brian did took both balls and chutzpah, because it is essentially a lose-lose gambit. If his versions were better people would say he used VM's version as a benchmark, and if not, he comes up with egg on his face. However, I found this to be extremely educational and valuable. First, a question. VM started with PCM files but the posted result was mp3. Brian started with the mp3 but posted a wav. Could he ever have gotten a better result, or does it not really matter whether the mp3 conversion loss happens at the beginning or at the end? (Maybe Lindell would post a full-res unmastered wav clip.) All that aside, what I found very interesting is that Brian's masters were very good, but IMO Vlado's was great. It moved air, the bottom was tight and huge, the snare hit you in the chest, and the highs were smooth and clear. It's the difference between good and great that makes careers. It can be a very fine line, but there is definitely a line. I can't really buy the all self-righteous outrage about this. Brian took the risk and put himself out there, that took conviction. His point was that comparable results can be had for a lot less $$, but whether he proved or disproved it remains in the ear of the listener. But you can't knock a guy for trying.

Sorry but no balls here by Brian. It's just pure audacity.

You yourself acknowledge that Vlado's version is better.

People are elavated to greatness not dragged up by being shouted at.

I think Brian could have conducted his experiment via different means

When it comes to good and great between Vlado and Brian we're not talking a fine line but the grand canyon.

My behaviour might be questionable here as well but if someone is going to stick his chin out he can expect to get it pulverised.

[Riccardo]

Originally Posted by Lindell

Lindell Rocks!


I might well be wrong but I have a feeling Tobias posted the file without all the profound thoughts and thinking you all are having here. He just did it to share it with us.


He managed to generate some strong discussion though

[lorenzo]

Thank you this thread is very funny,
it is only an internet forum no need to be that serious.


Or it isn't and we can all start by saying how valuable is the opinion regarding art of
most people here.

Play...
For instance i am sure Leonardo Da Vinci would have picked a horse as avatar.
A car really ? I am sorry.

[UnderTow]

Originally Posted by soundroid

oh, and it's just not Brian either.
there were others acting distastefully as well.

For the record, I am not offering any commercial mastering services at this point in time. In other words, I am not trying to hijack Vlado's (or anyone else's) clients. I was just having a bit of fun with the MP3s.

For whatever its worth, I find Vlado's version better than both Brian and my version(s). The thing that amazes me is that people prefer having a product at this level of loudness despite the, to my ears, obvious clipping. I think Vlado's version with 3-4 dB less clipping/limiting would be great!

Alistair

[ISedlacek]

Originally Posted by UnderTow

The thing that amazes me is that people prefer having a product at this level of loudness despite the, to my ears, obvious clipping.

This is a total (and quite alarming) downfal of a basic musical aesthetic sense. If it goes on like this, after a short time there will be no difference between such a record and the sound of a power saw ...

People tend to completely forget that there is a volume knob on their players. If they want a louder sound, they can just turn it ... The present "custom" and competitive levels of extreme overcompression and overlimiting are degrading music to a kind of distorted squashed noise with no aesthetics, dynamics, contrast and emotions.

[Joc R]

Great work Lindell!
The mix and the master rocks!

I like the sound on the drums....(now i wonder, who could have recorded those )

// J

[lucey]

Originally Posted by robot gigante

It's not the posting files that is as bothersome as 'look what I can do for x amount of dollars less.'

The money was first mentioned by Lindell, and proudly so. My post followed another poster who had further opened that door. In retrospect, had I not said that (optional) phrase would you be okay with alternate files?

Any way you look at it, that's distasteful, is an attempt to devalue what Vlado did, and shows little respect for either Lindell or Vlado. It undercuts what is a fair compensation for a job well done into a price war.

#1 There is no price war ...the job is well done, the client is thrilled!

#2 The assumption that someone happily posting a mix and master file should be followed only by a load of butt kissing praises is the fallacy here. If you want to gush with no debate then post in the Good News forum ... the mp3 forum is also available. Were this in Good News I'd have left it alone as it's not right to stop any gushing there, just like it's not right to stop any bitching in the Moan Zone.

Each little forum has it's mores. Bringing it here with both files made it open to discuss ... and there's no better way to discuss the minute subtleties of music production, that some engineers get their panties in a wad about and most music lovers can't hear, than to pony up an alternative. I'd say that not posting something, and then saying anything negative about the master, is both wrong and a sign of weakness. I could have said something critical like, "The drums and vocals are strong down the middle but the guitars are undervalued and boring, and it's generic sounding as a result - too flat for my taste". And that would probably have caused more attacks in response, "dont insult Vlado or Lindell you jerk" I hear it now! Can't have an opinon about music? Um sorry ... wrong forum.

Some of you seem to prefer a circle jerk to a conversation. Fair enough, but what's the point of that, beyond superficiality?

Again, I have the utmost respect for both the masterer and the mixers work here. In ACTUAL FACT, my point over and over was that the mixer is overstating the value of the mastering in this case, rightly enthused as he may be, as it's still the mix and music that matter most with a good mix. When Lindell gushed about it being so unique, and posted the price ... I was challenged to play with it and responded to those claims with an alternate. Do you like a challenge? I do. And the files and price posted were an open door in my opinion. Your opinion differs? Fine with me. Post your view and move along. The bashing is not called for.

Mastering is maybe 10-15% of a good mix. And the difference between any two masters of a good mix for the publics ear is even smaller. They want cohesion, and to hear the music. The subtleties we focus on are most often for the artist, producer or mixer - so that's the job - but they're not as huge to the consumer. This idea is essentially "mastering demysitified" and if that pisses you off, I'm sorry to state the obvious. Recording engineering has become human in the last decade and Mastering is following. Dont blame me for that and dont worry that VM will suffer one bit as he wont. Just look at how thrilled Lindell and others here were with his work!

The fact that people automatically assume insult and defend VM in a lame attempt to make themselves part of a higher circle, or with the innate assumption that I'm attacking VMs work or price ... that's the baggage you bring. I'm neither attacking, nor ass kissing here. Engineers can be the most wet old ladies I've ever seen. Vlado Meller is not at risk of insult or income loss by me or you or anyone here, even if that was my intention (which it was not). He's a staple, and quite secure. Clearly Lindell is happy as can be, so anyone's alternate master (from the mp3s he, um, provided) is no threat to him either. Where is the "insult" then? In your head?

My point all along to Lindell was that he's overstating the value of the VM "sound" in this case, his work and the music are most of it. That's my humble opinion, and I'm sticking with it. Can I have that opinion, or are you gonna call the condo association and have a friggin meeting?




Yikes ... and some wonder why rock is dead? ... the spirit of challenge and courage is clearly alive and well here

[scraggs]

vlado apparently gets paid $495 an hour. do any of you really think he cares about some guy offering up a different take on a master on a messageboard? if it were me i would just laugh about it, in between lighting cigars with 100 dollar bills.

i assure you i'm no fan of lucey's, having witnessed him act like a complete jerk on dozens and dozens of occasions, but i really didn't feel like he was that outta line in this case, and i'm surprised by the severity of the responses here.

just a quiet lurkers 2 cents. carry on.

[Brad Blackwood]

Originally Posted by lucey

In ACTUAL FACT, my point over and over was that the mixer is overstating the value of the mastering, rightly enthused as he may be, as it's still the mix and music that matter most in the case of a good mix.

Not trying to bust your balls, but it appears that virtually everyone that listened and posted preferred Vlado's version, so you proved nothing. If everyone had liked yours more you would have a point, but in essence you're saying "look, I can make it almost as good for less money"...

[djui5]

Originally Posted by lucey

In ACTUAL FACT, my point over and over was that the mixer is overstating the value of the mastering, rightly enthused as he may be, as it's still the mix and music that matter most in the case of a good mix.

Not really, as there is an insanely huge difference in the quality between the masters posted on this thread. It's far from a difference in volume, so much more than that. If you can't hear the difference then I'm sorry for you.

I apologize to Lindy for "hyjacking" his thread, but it needed to be said. This thread was posted so people could hear a before and after of Vlado's work, not anyone else. I'll still stand by my statement that the 2 of you were out of line for posting anything, ESPECIALLY with the quote "Well for $xx I can do this!". Who gives a f'k?

With that being said I'll stop posting here.

[lucey]

Originally Posted by Brad Blackwood

Not trying to bust your balls, but it appears that virtually everyone that listened and posted preferred Vlado's version, so you proved nothing. If everyone had liked yours more you would have a point, but in essence you're saying "look, I can make it almost as good for less money"...

Preference is subjective Brad ... how many times have you said that. There is no "better", except to the client ... who likes what he bought. And we dont need to vote on it, but for the record I don't like Vlados version (guitars valued too little) or mine (it's hashy from mp3, trying to copy). I did it fast and aimed to match his direction to make your exact point and my point that the music and mix is king.

Not trying to bust your balls either, but if you want to have a real and fair shootout, get in on it yourself, invite everyone else ... and I'm game. If we all had the mix file and not the mp3, and if it was blind vote with a number of non lucey-haters in the voting, we could have a fair and real vote. But again, to what end? The client is already happy.

This is no scientific study, and I NEVER TRIED TO BETTER IT. Only to get close using an mp3 source - which I did - insults from the petty not withstanding.



Bottom line, 9X% of the public would not know any difference and 100% would like or not like this music, buy or not buy this music, based on these masters. The music and mix is the thing, the subtleties are for the client ... that's the point.

[studjo]

LOL you guys are killing me here


Jo