B&W 802: How small is too small?

[audiomichael]

I was recently at a mix (big modern score) that was done on B&W 802 speakers and they are really amazing. I've heard that they MUST have room to breathe. How big a room are we talkin' here.

I've got a fairly small room 11'x12'x9, but well treated. Speakers (Quested H108's + sub) are about 2.5' from wall, and listening position is about a 6' triangle with the speakers.

I know this is a mastering forum, but I'll mainly be composing, and mixing on these (orchestral / electronic scores). Am I barking up the wrong tree with these monster speakers? The other direction would be going the Adam/K&H/Barefoot/etc route.

[Roland]

Originally Posted by audiomichael

I was recently at a mix (big modern score) that was done on B&W 802 speakers and they are really amazing. I've heard that they MUST have room to breathe. How big a room are we talkin' here.

I've got a fairly small room 11'x12'x9, but well treated. Speakers (Quested H108's + sub) are about 2.5' from wall, and listening position is about a 6' triangle with the speakers.

I know this is a mastering forum, but I'll mainly be composing, and mixing on these (orchestral / electronic scores). Am I barking up the wrong tree with these monster speakers? The other direction would be going the Adam/K&H/Barefoot/etc route.

I've worked with the 802's on a few occasions in various room's and have to say that I didn't find them particularly room fussy, however I personally didn't like them very much. At the same venue I had the chance to use the 805's with a sub, for me this combination was a noticeable step up. The quested you have are good speakers, depending on what your needs are be careful that you are not taking a step sideways rather than up.

Regards


Roland

[Silvertone]

Originally Posted by Roland

I've worked with the 802's on a few occasions in various room's and have to say that I didn't find them particularly room fussy, however I personally didn't like them very much. At the same venue I had the chance to use the 805's with a sub, for me this combination was a noticeable step up. The quested you have are good speakers, depending on what your needs are be careful that you are not taking a step sideways rather than up.

Regards


Roland

Wow Roland,

I own both the 802's and the 805's and run both with Velodyne subs. You must have your numbers mixed up or the rooms you heard these in were totally different. Or the 802's were under powered by comparison, something was up. Not to argue but the 802's are a big step up from the 805's (which are great), no ifs and or buts.

As for the original question, the beauty of these speakers is that the listening position can be as tight as you want or as wide as you want. They would work in your room.
However those Questeds you have are great for mixing (some mastering engineers have even used them). I find the bigger the room, the more the room equation is taken out of the picture, in other words less interference with boundries.

[Roland]

Originally Posted by Silvertone

Wow Roland,

I own both the 802's and the 805's and run both with Velodyne subs. You must have your numbers mixed up or the rooms you heard these in were totally different. Or the 802's were under powered by comparison, something was up. Not to argue but the 802's are a big step up from the 805's (which are great), no ifs and or buts.

As for the original question, the beauty of these speakers is that the listening position can be as tight as you want or as wide as you want. They would work in your room.
However those Questeds you have are great for mixing (some mastering engineers have even used them). I find the bigger the room, the more the room equation is taken out of the picture, in other words less interference with boundries.

The numbers are, I'm afraid, correct.

The 802's were without subs (but they are large supposedly full range monitors anyway) and the 805's were paired with the B&W sub (ASW 825) I believe. All driven by Chord amps, so no lack of grunt there.

I've not in the past been a great fan of B&W's often I have found them veiled and lacking in detail, however the benefit of the 805 over the 802 is their appeared to be a more coherent mid range (a classic benefit of many two way designs) and by using them with the sub the bass was extreme (when needed) but never overblown. The 802 for me lacked bass and didn't focus as well. Obviously speakers can be a personal choice, and usually the further up the range you go with a manufacturer the better you expect their products to become, but this is a classic case where it isn't always so.

My experiences with these units were in several rooms at the Royal Opera House in London, interestingly my own preferences were also shared by the opera house sound staff and several casual listeners and I believe the visiting BBC engineers. The 805's are not the very best system I think I've ever heard, but they are extremely satisfying, particularly when you factor in their price, the 802's I thought were clean, but not very special, and they cost a lot more


Regards



Roland

[audiomichael]

For sure the Quested H108's and the Bryston 4BSST is a good system. The issue I'm having is that the H108's don't have the low end extension that I need. My music has a lot of information under 150hz and I think that's where the 108's start to disapear. I think a more full range system would help me get to my final destination faster. (although keeping the Questeds).

My thoughts are that if I'm gonna spend over 5k on monitors, I thought I'd shoot for the stars with the 802s

[Roland]

Originally Posted by audiomichael

For sure the Quested H108's and the Bryston 4BSST is a good system. The issue I'm having is that the H108's don't have the low end extension that I need. My music has a lot of information under 150hz and I think that's where the 108's start to disapear. I think a more full range system would help me get to my final destination faster. (although keeping the Questeds).

My thoughts are that if I'm gonna spend over 5k on monitors, I thought I'd shoot for the stars with the 802s

Go take a listen, but if it's awsome bass you are after, I think you will be dissapointed.

Regards



Roland

[Darius van H]

Originally Posted by Roland

I've not in the past been a great fan of B&W's often I have found them veiled and lacking in detail, however the benefit of the 805 over the 802 is their appeared to be a more coherent mid range (a classic benefit of many two way designs) and by using them with the sub the bass was extreme (when needed) but never overblown. The 802 for me lacked bass and didn't focus as well.

802's veiled and lacking in detail?......are we talking about the same speakers?

[Roland]

Originally Posted by Darius van H

802's veiled and lacking in detail?......are we talking about the same speakers?

805's (with sub) better then 802's =

To me, comparing 802's to low-end Questeds is like comparing a Bentley to a........whatever, you get the point.

In fairness Darius I did say in the past, the 802's have the same tweeter as the 805 and the current B&W range for me is a significant improvement on their speakers of 10-15 years ago.

Possibly I didn't make my opinion/position clear in my earlier posts, but for my money the 802 is ok, but I wouldn't class it as a great speaker. The 805 with the matching B&W sub I used it with was a little star and that's before you factor in its cost. This was kicking out a lot of sound with great imaging on a system that I reckon probably only cost around £5,000 or less.

I repeat, this opinion was also that of about another 15-20 people from musicians to engineers, my guess is that we can't all be wrong especially as nobody else was hearing it the other way round.

I also disagree about the quested, not the sort of speaker I would use for classical work, but I've heard them sounding more than respectable on several occassions.

Regards



Roland

[Brad Blackwood]

10-15 years ago was the Matrix series - pre-Nautilus. Those speakers sound nothing like the Nautilus line, ime, and are a terrible way to judge the N802s (or D802s).

The Matrix 802s always sounded like something was broken to me.

[Roland]

Originally Posted by Brad Blackwood

10-15 years ago was the Matrix series - pre-Nautilus. Those speakers sound nothing like the Nautilus line, ime, and are a terrible way to judge the N802s (or D802s).

The Matrix 802s always sounded like something was broken to me.

If fairness Brad, that was what I was saying, the matrix series (and I remember plenty of people raving about the 801 version of those) were not great.

The new 802's are in a different class, however that being said I still don't like them that much. My comment was about the 805, which at £2,500 a pair (driven with a decent amp) when paired with the dedicated B&W sub is a great system, and IMHO better than the 802's which cost more. This is not unusual ATC SCM50's work better than the 100's, certain cheaper PMC's are better than some of the more expensive ones in the range, I'm sure there are plenty of other speaker manufacturers have cheaper models that outperform higher models.

Regard to all


Roland

[Brad Blackwood]

Originally Posted by Roland

My comment was about the 805, which at £2,500 a pair (driven with a decent amp) when paired with the dedicated B&W sub is a great system, and IMHO better than the 802's which cost more.

Agree to disagree, I suppose - I have owned pairs of both (all Nautilus) for about four years and the N805s to have no where near the midrange detail the N802s have.

Red cars, blue cars, I suppose...

[Silvertone]

Originally Posted by Brad Blackwood

Agree to disagree, I suppose - I have owned pairs of both (all Nautilus) for about four years and the N805s to have no where near the midrange detail the N802s have.

Red cars, blue cars, I suppose...

I couldn't agree more Brad.

In fact I still feel the room must have played a big factor. I've heard the same thing happen with Dunluvy speakers, in several rooms they sounded great and in other rooms they sounded pretty mediocre. Room, amp, speaker the three are entwined forever.

[Geetar]

Originally Posted by Roland

This is not unusual ATC SCM50's work better than the 100's
Roland

No... from my experience, this is utterly untrue. In a decent sized room- and my colleagues have put a fair few together in the UK with ATCs of all shapes and sizes, the 50's are only rarely the speakers of choice if the 100's or 150's are within budget in a conventional setting. For us, it has been only Classical guys that seem glued to the 50's.

It's clear that your mileage has varied to a frightening degree.