Bass Programming in Indie Rock Music

[brockf]

I know I should be dragged over the coals for asking this but I don't see any options.

I am recording my own indie rock album (think John Ralston, John Mayer, Micah P Hinson) and I don't play bass. Drums, guitars, keys, those are all fine but I obviously need bass in the songs. I have been programming bass with NN-XT samples in Reason but I am finding them more unrealistic than ever as I improve all of my other sounds. Does anyone know of any techniques, samples, or plugins that will help create better rock bass sounds for my music? Thanks... and sorry

[DrDeltaM]

Trilogy would be the first plugin I'd look at.

But why not hire a local bassplayer? Not gonna be more expenisve then buying a plugin, but would be faster and most likely better as well

[rsadasiv]

Originally Posted by paulnowo

I know I should be dragged over the coals for asking this but I don't see any options.

I am recording my own indie rock album (think John Ralston, John Mayer, Micah P Hinson) and I don't play bass. Drums, guitars, keys, those are all fine but I obviously need bass in the songs. I have been programming bass with NN-XT samples in Reason but I am finding them more unrealistic than ever as I improve all of my other sounds. Does anyone know of any techniques, samples, or plugins that will help create better rock bass sounds for my music? Thanks... and sorry

I was using the Acoustic Bass NN-T1(?) patch and then beefing up the sound with CamelCrusher (www.camelaudio.com). However, I also felt that the bass, while adequate, was not actually good so I am currently retracking the bass parts with a cheap electric bass and the POD xt Bass Expansion Pack.

[day-go]

Originally Posted by paulnowo

I know I should be dragged over the coals for asking this but I don't see any options.

I am recording my own indie rock album (think John Ralston, John Mayer, Micah P Hinson)

john mayer is indie rock?

but i'll second trilogy, it's the shit. but as good as it is, it's live bass samples are still no substitute for a real player.
you could try going a different route. i have a friend who plays guitar and he always uses the vintage organ plugin lounge lizard for bass parts. it doesn't sound like a real bass guitar by any means, but it sounds surprisingly good with heavier guitars. i've heard some acoustic guys use regular old pianos to get that extra low end.
or you could even just buy a cheap electric bass and a di box (which would be as cheap or cheaper than any of the aforementioned plugins). if you can play guitar, you can pick out the bass parts you've already written without too much trouble. i can't play guiar for shit but i can lay down a simple bass part in a pinch. hit up that craigslist!

[Anticlimactic]

Honestly not trying to sound like a dick, but you play guitar and you can't play bass? Or did I misunderstand and you don't have a bass to play?

[brockf]

I've never owned a bass and so, naturally, I assume that I can't play it I'm not even that good at guitar... or any instrument for that matter. My strength is in singing and writing.

As for John Mayer, I threw him in there for the pop influence

Thanks for the replies. You guys are great.

[corworld]

I have a friend who plays in an Indie Rock Duo and uses a Wurly through a fuzz pedal. Think Van Halen "And the cradle will rock". A great rock sound or with no fuzz you can get a real juicy funk/electronic type sound.

Or I'm sure you could FTP the tracks to somebody on this board...

[taturana]

finding a good bass player that fits into your soungs can be a PITA , but it's well worth it... no synth can ever substitute for a real player... also get yourself a bass and learn to play it...

[Pondscum]

As a bassplayer I`d have to say find one or fly me out and I`ll play for room.food and flight.

[Tibbon]

While I am not Glen Ballard, I'd say that his response (and while he's not doing 'indie rock' it still might be useful to note) would be... get a Minimoog. Trillogy is cool, but the mini can take you there too. There's plenty of albums out there that the mini is covering the bass instead of a real one.

Either that or just go get a bass and a decent DI. If you can play guitar, then you can probably get along a bit on bass.

[deegone]

hi,



personally,i think the basic thing you have to go after,is the way you program ,more than the actual tone of the bass,since this comes secondly.MIDI by nature is a square thing,so take the edges off using CC's+velocity.
if you can regreate all the little nuances of a bass performance ,for example the very short notes (in midi terms 10~15 ticks),random slides between notes(for this set up your module/plugin's pitch bend range to +/-12 ,that'll give you a value of 680 per half note),the dynamics between notes, and the different sounds like plings or bends.
my personal experience is that the more you take care of this little things,the more real it gets in the mix ,down side is that you'll need a LOT of patience.
my 2 cents,
good luck!

d.

[matt thomas]

inorder of pref:

- get a bass player
- get a bass yourself
- play it on guitar, either eq'd, heavy strings or even pitch shifted

synth bass typically sounds like.. synth bass, unless you want that sound, like glen ballard (thats the allanis morisette guy isn't it?), real bass is where its at.

steinberg do a "virtual basist" plug I think, I have never tried it, perhaps you could demo it?

narco

[taturana]

as for synth bass... the minimoog is the unchallenged champ....

[six_wax]

I produced a track for an EP last year that used one of the stock NN-XT bass patches. ON at least 3 different occasions, people commented on the awesome bass tone and wondered about the player, instrument, recording chain, etc. Hilarious!

I'd say, just focus on getting the part right (notes, feel, release), and see if everything else doesn't fall into place.

[TeReKeTe]

rather than actually buying a real minimoog (since we're in the with-a-cheapness LET board), if you're into the sound of a minimoog, go for either:

--an arturia plug in (all sound great)
--a microkorg . some really great bass (albeit synth bass) tones in there, with tons of depth and/or punch.

[David@MVS]

Originally Posted by paulnowo

I've never owned a bass and so, naturally, I assume that I can't play it I'm not even that good at guitar... or any instrument for that matter. My strength is in singing and writing.
Thanks for the replies. You guys are great.

I would say that the inability to play like a virtuoso, but still have good material is one staple of indie rock (for me at least...e.g. The Medoza Line).

So in that regard, just play the bass yourself. It will fit right in with the genre (like that John Meyer guy ).

Good luck,
David

[Dickens]

Didn't Pino Palladino play bass on the recent John Mayer album?
No sample regardless of how cool it sounds can be manipulated to sound like a great player. Indie rock, get a bass player or play it yourself and trash it up if you have to.

[CassidyGT]

Send me the stereo .wav file of your song(s) and I'll put some bass lines to them for you for free. I usually go into my POD then into my Black Lion modded Digi002 into SONAR, ProTools or Cubase. I'll just start rolling at the beginning of each song and send you the bass .wav files. You can then mix to taste. 20 year bass live and studio player so I hope I can come up with some reasonable sounds for you.

[cdog]

Originally Posted by narco

inorder of pref:

- get a bass player
- get a bass yourself
- play it on guitar, either eq'd, heavy strings or even pitch shifted

synth bass typically sounds like.. synth bass, unless you want that sound, like glen ballard (thats the allanis morisette guy isn't it?), real bass is where its at.

steinberg do a "virtual basist" plug I think, I have never tried it, perhaps you could demo it?

narco

[brockf]

Originally Posted by CassidyGT

Send me the stereo .wav file of your song(s) and I'll put some bass lines to them for you for free. I usually go into my POD then into my Black Lion modded Digi002 into SONAR, ProTools or Cubase. I'll just start rolling at the beginning of each song and send you the bass .wav files. You can then mix to taste. 20 year bass live and studio player so I hope I can come up with some reasonable sounds for you.

Wow, that's quite an offer. Thanks a lot! When I am ready for this, I will send you a message and see if you are still up for it

Thanks for all of the other responses, too, you guys are a great help.

[djbrough]

Trilogy. I've fooled a lot of bass players with it.

[taturana]

the arturia plugin is really good... and i used an moog bass patch on a tassman 2 more than once very sucessfully...

[Tibbon]

Originally Posted by taturana

the arturia plugin is really good... and i used an moog bass patch on a tassman 2 more than once very sucessfully...

The Moog plugins just don't do some of the Moog things right. Was speaking to Tom Rhea about this (who worked on some of the design and wrote the manual for the MemoryMoog among other things). He didn't say it sounded BAD, but just that it doesn't behave just like a Mini. It may work for you, but it's not my bag.

Personally I always was totally underwhelmed by any moog sounding plugins... put beside a real moog even my girlfriend can tell the difference in a blind test. Also, a huge part of the moog IMHO is 'playing it' not just having the sounds. I did a huge part of a soundtrack last night, with one moog patch going the whole time... and just twisting knobs. That's not so plugin friendly of a task.

[juicylime]

Buy a 2nd hand bass and get going on it yourself. Trust me. Do it. One of the great things I love about playing bass is that as long as you have a decent production sense you can make very simple parts still work for you and then as you progress you can start to make amazing parts work for you.

Look at Adam Clayton. He sold a few million albums and made some amazing music before his little finger ever even touched a bass string.

[Tibbon]

JuicyLime-

Right on. I find the more instruments I pick up, the better the others get! The more I play bass, the better I get at guitar, the more I play drums, the better I get at bass, etc.

And the more music you play and understand well, the better the producer and engineer you will be.

I initially picked up bass, just so I could communicate with bass players better and be able to get them to play what I wanted them to. However now I'm a pretty decent bass player (only about 6 or so years under my belt, but it works).

[vs.Gotham]

I'd honestly pick getting a cheap Fender bass over using a plug in - you don't need an amp or anything, just record it direct. If you can play guitar you can (at least in the technical sense) play the bass - same notes, same tuning, two less strings. Now you won't play as well as a good bass player, but since you're playing the notes on a keyboard as is you might as well play the same parts on a real bass.

It's also a lot of fun, and if you start learning how to play it well it'll make you a much better songwriter and guitar player.

If not, the Arturia MiniMoog plug in is great, though I haven't heard Trilogy so I can't compare it.

[taturana]

of course a plugin, is just a plugin , not the real thing...

trilogy is a lot different from the arturia minimoog, in a sense that it isn't a moog simulator, but has a big bank of bass sounds, various types, so it's quite a bit more varied ... if you're going for a synth bass sound the moog (or sims) is it if you want many different sounds, go for trilogy...

[juicylime]

Originally Posted by Tibbon

JuicyLime-

Right on. I find the more instruments I pick up, the better the others get! The more I play bass, the better I get at guitar, the more I play drums, the better I get at bass, etc.

And the more music you play and understand well, the better the producer and engineer you will be.

I initially picked up bass, just so I could communicate with bass players better and be able to get them to play what I wanted them to. However now I'm a pretty decent bass player (only about 6 or so years under my belt, but it works).

[theblue1]

You could try layering/massaging more than one MIDI triggered bass sound... doubling bass parts in some kinds of music is common (sometimes using a synth and a bass, sometimes using studio tricks like octave splitting [pitch shifting]).


I actually play bass (sorta kinda... I'm a wee bit rusty right now... I use a fretless and you have to keep up with it to keep your intonation good) and I frequently use various bass samples and even straight analog style synths, depending on the particulars. But I often have to move to layering at least certain sections. (Particularly in modulations, I've found that I sometimes have to move a bass part up or down an octave to give either definition or bottom.)

[I <3 The Beatle]

I love Trilogy for hip hop..but how are you guys getting rock sounds with it?

Do you trigger it with a keyboard?

Maybe when the whole mix is playing it's not obvious..but even with the "real" basses, rock lines just don't seem to sound right to me.

The upright bass is the sh*t though! Fun to play with that..