room treatments help (room diagram pic)

[briefcasemanx]

I was thinking about buying a few cheap acoustic panels, maybe like 4-6 GIK 224 panels or something. I'm not looking for a huge improvement, as I don't think that's possible with my cash, with it needing to be a non permanent solution. I want some panels or gobos or something where I can put a few up when i'm tracking, and store them in my basement when i'm done. I can't remove the couches.

Before the inevitable gripes on my mix position, I should say that I don't have huge problems with mixes translating, probably because I've learned how to deal with it, but I was planning on putting a trap in the corner behind me during mixing anyway. The main thing I want to do is get better raw tracks, even if they're only a little bit better, that's fine.

I hope the diagram makes sense. Any thoughts on what I could/should get (preferably from GIK since they're cheap) and where to put them? I only wanted to spend about 300 for starters, and if it did anything I would probably buy more. If it helps at all there seems to be a high mid ringing when I clap loudly, i'm guessing around 4k, and my low end doesn't really sound punchy like I want it to.

Thanks for any help. I understand if it's a lost cause.tutt tutt tutt dfegad

here are some tracks i've recorded for reference: www.myspace.com/wildhoganrecords

[tINY]

That's not a bad room. You'll want to find the parallel walls (like the windows and the wall under the balcony) and put up some covered 703 or acoustic cotton.

You'll also want some bas trapping - you might get some milage by putting the couches under the window.

$300 will buy a lot of OC703 and fabric at the sewing store.....



-tINY

[briefcasemanx]

what would be the benefit of 703 over something like GIK 224 panels?

[drBill]

In my experience, the best thing you can do is to get some angles on those walls. Parallel walls suck! You can either go horizontal or verticle. They both present their own challenges, but they are absolutely worth the effort. Without that, you'll just be slapping on band-aids for a problem that should have been fixed earlier. Good luck! bp

[briefcasemanx]

Originally Posted by drBill

Without that, you'll just be slapping on band-aids for a problem that should have been fixed earlier. Good luck! bp

it's the living room in my house, not a studio that I've built. I cannot do any actual construction. I was hoping to possibly get SOME improvement though.

[Glenn Kuras]

Tiny is right but from the lab numbers I have seen our product does a better job then just plan 703 on the low end. If you would like email me at glenn.k@gikacoustics.com and we can work out where to place panels. That is the other nice thing about buying from us, you get one on one advice for your room.

Glenn

[drBill]

Originally Posted by briefcasemanx

it's the living room in my house, not a studio that I've built. I cannot do any actual construction. I was hoping to possibly get SOME improvement though.

That's cool as long as you're aware that you're just putting band-aids on a problem. I'm sure that the more treatment you do, the better it will sound. It will be mandatory in that space with the parallel walls. Also, the layout (mix position in the corner) is weird AFAIC. Just my $.02.

[tINY]

Actually, the corner set-up works pretty well. You don't have issues with first reflections from the side walls and you can move the speakers and chair in and out of the corner to adjust the bass response. It's not used much, but it works pretty well.

I'd use the corner where the couches are, though.

How do you build your studios, drBill?



-tINY

[Glenn Kuras]

Originally Posted by drBill

In my experience, the best thing you can do is to get some angles on those walls. Parallel walls suck! You can either go horizontal or verticle. They both present their own challenges, but they are absolutely worth the effort. Without that, you'll just be slapping on band-aids for a problem that should have been fixed earlier. Good luck! bp

Angle walls will help, but if you do not do them right you can make things worse. The other thing is you then start to mess up areas where bass traps will work out best. I do not like to disagree with people but in my experience putting bass trapping in a room with panels for the first reflections is NOT a band-aid but a real solution to getting a properly tuned room. If you have $10s of thousands to bring in a pro designer from the start then heck yes that would be great, but most people are working with pre built rooms. I will agree though that your set up does not seem right. You need to be 38% of the room legnth and sit facing the short wall to fire the speakers down the longest wall. If you would like take a look at our FAQ (link on sig below) to help you with set up.

Glenn

[drBill]

Originally Posted by myfipie

Angle walls will help, but if you do not do them right you can make things worse. The other thing is you then start to mess up areas where bass traps will work out best. I do not like to disagree with people but in my experience putting bass trapping in a room with panels for the first reflections is NOT a band-aid but a real solution to getting a properly tuned room. If you have $10s of thousands to bring in a pro designer from the start then heck yes that would be great, but most people are working with pre built rooms. I will agree though that your set up does not seem right. You need to be 38% of the room legnth and sit facing the short wall to fire the speakers down the longest wall. If you would like take a look at our FAQ (link on sig below) to help you with set up.

Glenn

Glenn, can you give an example where angled walls make things worse? I agree that with a room that size and parallel walls he will need bass trapping. I was just trying to let briefcase know that parallel wals are not optimum, and if given the chance, I'd angle them. Obviously that's not what's going to happen here though.

[Glenn Kuras]

Originally Posted by drBill

Glenn, can you give an example where angled walls make things worse? I agree that with a room that size and parallel walls he will need bass trapping. I was just trying to let briefcase know that parallel wals are not optimum, and if given the chance, I'd angle them. Obviously that's not what's going to happen here though.

It would depend on the size and sharp of the room to calculate the best angle for a given room and for that I would not just guess but get a pro to come in and figure it out. Don't get me wrong I see the reason for a angled walls, but I also see people just treat the walls and it worked just as well. Maybe I over reacted because the word "band-aid". Sorry I do not what to discount your advice.

Glenn

[drBill]

Originally Posted by myfipie

Sorry I do not what to discount your advice.

Glenn

Glenn - not at all. I'm just curious as to when you've seen angled walls "mess up" the sound more than if the same room had had parallel walls. I've just not seen that. Hey, we all need band-aids don't we. I don't know about you, but I live in anything BUT a perfect world. Cheers, bp

[Ethan Winer]

Bill,

Maybe I can help Glenn out a bit here.

> I'm just curious as to when you've seen angled walls "mess up" the sound more than if the same room had had parallel walls. <

Having angled walls is never bad, but it may not help much either. The two rules of thumb are:

1. To avoid flutter echo between two parallel surfaces, each wall needs to angle about one inch for every ten linear inches. Less angle than that is never bad, but it won't fully stop the flutter echo.

2. The other reason for angling walls is to deflect first reflections from the side walls to behind the mix position rather than toward your ears. The same goes for the ceiling. To achieve this you need at least 30 to 35 degree angles. This article on the RealTraps site explains it in more detail:

www.realtraps.com/rfz.htm

The main reason to angle the walls for #2 above is to avoid first reflections and the comb filtering it causes, but without having to make the room more dead sounding as would happen with putting absorption at those reflection points. Another way to reduce the effects of early reflections is with diffusion instead of absorption, and that too avoids making the room more dead sounding. Personally, I prefer a control room to be on the dead side, but some people prefer more of a live sound. So angling or diffusion are two ways to achieve that.

--Ethan

[Glenn Kuras]

thanks Ethan!!!

[bpape]

Just as a quick followup. The biggest disadvantage to angled walls in most cases is that you usually lose a TON of space. Think about the angles we're talking about here and how much room volume you'd be losing. Now, if you have a lot of space to start with and can still have a good sized room, that's great. If not, I'd prefer the extra volume.

Many ways to skin a cat.

Bryan

[Ethan Winer]

Bryan,

> you usually lose a TON of space. <

Good point.

> Many ways to skin a cat. <

Bear (at left) objects strongly to that analogy.

--Ethan

[Scott R. Foster]

Originally Posted by briefcasemanx

I'm not looking for a huge improvement, as I don't think that's possible with my cash, with it needing to be a non permanent solution. I want some panels or gobos or something where I can put a few up when I’m tracking, and store them in my basement when i'm done. I can't remove the couches.

You should be looking for a huge improvement... and you can get it.

Try to achieve symmetry in your layout - treat the corners for bass trapping / low frequency control - and then treat the early reflection points. use broadband porous absorption devices throughout [no need to limit your low frequency treatment in a room this size] - which generally means mineral fiber cores at least 4" thick - don't add membranes / foil / limp mass / or other resonate elements. Just plain naked mineral fiber with an upholstery you can breath through.

If you really must move the panels around - I would definitely go with 703. Works great and is light weight. If you can come up with a placement scheme that allows you to leave them in place then shop for price - for example, a heavier, but cheaper rockwool panels has little disadvantage to a fiberglass panel of half the weight if you are only going to hang it once.

Use the couches as rear wall/floor corner absorbers - try and place them symmetrically.

Something like the sketch below is what I would strive for:

1) A pair of vertically stacked panels in each front corner
2) A set of heavy draperies on the front wall
3) A trio of panels on the ceiling reflection point
4) Rear corner panels mounted high
5) A rear wall reflection point panel

Adding a few front wall/ceiling panels would be a nice touch.

Your budget will allow somethign along these lines if you build from scratch [light weight timber frame - mineral fiber panel - breathable fabric stapled to the backside - add hanger hardware]. If willing to up the budget to about $500 you can use our Ready Bags for a job of this scale and skip the carpentry and upholstering.

Good Luck!

[Protools Guy]

I like Scott Foster's re-arrangement. IMHO, this is the way to go. Your expansion ceiling will work to your advantage, and the corners are gone.

If you have a tight budget, I would use moving blankets to deaden all the walls since it's a rather small room. If you have a bit more $$, I'd use this foam:

http://www.markertek.com/Product.asp...&search=0&off=

[Christopherus]

I think Scott Foster's layout is very nice as well. With the ceiling angling up and away behind the listener it should be easy to avoid reflections from above.

One thing I was noticing though is that the OP also needs tracking space in the same room. I'm thinking there might not be enough area left with the couches there, but we will have to hear from him. I'd like to hear from him about any experimenting he's done !