Phase aligning the snare bottom mic, Pros vs Cons

[blackcom]

How many of you manually aligns the snare bottom mic with the snare top mic by nudging it a few milliseconds to the left (no IBP)?

And those of you who choose spesifically not to (still no IBP), any particular reasons why?

[DeeDrive]

I don't see why you would do this. There shouldn't a great time delay between the two mics, you should only have to flip the polarity switch on your pre to "phase-align" these 2 signals. Can you explain the reasoning behind wanting to nudge these?

[dave-G]

The only times I've needed to do this (time-slipping in a DAW, beyond polarity inversion) is if I've got a track to mix where the engineer had the mic positioned farther away from the bottom of the snare than the top one was. ... or if the mic stand sagged and nobody noticed (I can't tell you how often this happens--not just on snares)

Point is, the problem is generally not a problem with the mics well-positioned... but if you see an offset of a few samples and like the sound better when you move it, why worry?

-dave

[Musiclab]

I don't put a mic under the snare, that is too ugly a sound. I mic the side of the shell. There's no time issue but usually I have to flip the phase of the side mic. But it's a much more usuable sound than under the snare.

[dave-G]

Originally Posted by Musiclab

I don't put a mic under the snare, that is too ugly a sound. I mic the side of the shell. There's no time issue but usually I have to flip the phase of the side mic. But it's a much more usuable sound than under the snare.

thumbsup

-dave

[blackcom]

Originally Posted by DeeDrive

I don't see why you would do this. There shouldn't a great time delay between the two mics, you should only have to flip the polarity switch on your pre to "phase-align" these 2 signals. Can you explain the reasoning behind wanting to nudge these?

Well, the bottom mic only lags behing by a few frames if you zooooooom alot into the waveform...
couple of people i've heard io aligned the bottom so it would match exactly with the top-mic... i think it's been mentioned aligned overheads and snare "perfectly" on this forum before....

[jbuntz]

Kind of a weird deal. Anything more than a millisecond is going to push it further out of phase unless you have a DEEEEEEP drum. And plus, there a phase relation between both heads and you are going to comprise that relationship relative to one of the heads to align the other. When I've messed with this I've found there there's no spot that sounded better than natural. Long story short, it's not really going to be worth messing with to have a noticeable improvement in sound quality.

[Wayne]

Originally Posted by Musiclab

.. I mic the side of the shell. There's no time issue but usually I have to flip the phase of the side mic. But it's a much more usuable sound than under the snare.

Funny thing about it is that the side or even top position is typically a lot closer to 90 degrees relative the OH's than 0 or 180. So either polarity is likely to be just the 'better flavor.
+1 for the side here too. A very nice spot to grab that nice top end stuff.

[wwittman]

I 'manually align" the bottom mic by MOVING THE MIC.

[Musiclab]

Originally Posted by wwittman

I 'manually align" the bottom mic by MOVING THE MIC.

I'm with you Will, cept I hate it under the snare at all. Mic position is everything, I've never liked this whole aligning drums tracks around business. That's one of the many nice things about recording to 2", you get the sound and you leave it alone.

[taturana]

Originally Posted by wwittman

I 'manually align" the bottom mic by MOVING THE MIC.

yeah!

before reading this post i wouldn't even "think" of doing it any other way... not that i do nw....

[paulneedles]

i almost feel duty bound to defend the 'ugly' practice of micing the underneath of a snare! That technique has been one of the key things responsible for achieving the sound i'd been looking for for so long. That is, drums that sound like crunchy, exciting, hyper-real 60s drums. Are the drums on Doors records ugly?

personally, i don't like micing the tops of snares - they always go 'pah' or 'doooiiiinnnng' when i want them to be more like 'krcha!' or 'whap!'. the under the snare thing isn't meant to be a 'sound' - it's meant as a compliment to what's already there, kind of like adding salt to food. would you eat a plate of salt? salt is an ugly tasting thing in isolation, but absolutely necessary in order to make certain foods taste just right.

[Bob Olhsson]

It might be worth trying. I've always found it remarkably unpredictable. Sometimes it's better and sometimes not.


If I've got a great fat overhead snare sound that needs a little more 5k, the "under" mike gated off the top mike (but with none of the top mike mixed in) can work wonders.

[warhead]

I've always found the bottom mic to sound ugly solo, but when reverse phase (typically) and blended in a VERY small amount (maybe 20% fader) it can do wonders for filling in the snare and making it sound like a whole drum rather than just the top head.

Using a decent SDC on snare top with a little distance can accomplish this on its own many times, along with the overheads of course.

War

[Musiclab]

Originally Posted by paulneedles

i almost feel duty bound to defend the 'ugly' practice of micing the underneath of a snare! That technique has been one of the key things responsible for achieving the sound i'd been looking for for so long. That is, drums that sound like crunchy, exciting, hyper-real 60s drums. Are the drums on Doors records ugly?

personally, i don't like micing the tops of snares - they always go 'pah' or 'doooiiiinnnng' when i want them to be more like 'krcha!' or 'whap!'. the under the snare thing isn't meant to be a 'sound' - it's meant as a compliment to what's already there, kind of like adding salt to food. would you eat a plate of salt? salt is an ugly tasting thing in isolation, but absolutely necessary in order to make certain foods taste just right.

Ok but why not try using the side for the same purpose, It is a much much much more useful sound.

[paulneedles]

I probably will try it!

[OVERNIGHT]

When I mic the snare bottom, which I never do without also having the top miced, it's for the sound of the actual snares on the bottom head. The sizzle. I don't get that so much with micing the side. I back the bottom one off about a foot under and point it directly up. I use a 414 in Hypercardioid mode for more kick rejection but I still get more kick than I'd like. The 441 on the top head is usualy near 45 degrees and 2 inces off the top head. I have the "cack", the "pwow" and the "sizzle" spread between the overheads, top and bottom mics. Season to taste.
I've never had phase issues with this set up.... and yes, I check.